lets discuss OA drizzling

[Nige.Coll]

to save another thread going off topic i have started this one.

i have read several research papers and i believe that drizzling OA onto the bees in winter has an adverse effect on the bees .
it has been proved that it shortens bee life and can damage the queen shortening her life also.
the only reason it was adopted was because it was safer for the beekeeper than the older sublimation method.
for every research paper that says it doesn't damage the bees there is one that says it does.

the outcome is that it is worth doing because it kills the varroa and the varroa does more damage than the drizzle method to the bees.

repeatedly drizzling OA onto the bees i cannot see is a way to progress for the health of the colony.

 

[Finman]

i believe that drizzling OA onto the bees in winter has an adverse effect on the bees .
it has been proved that it shortens bee life and can damage the queen shortening her life also..

It may shorten workers life but in all reseachers it is tested that spring build up is normal.

If you think that varroa damages are better alternative, then you think.


..

the only reason it was adopted was because it was safer for the beekeeper than the older sublimation method.
..

Sublimation is about 20 -25 Y old method. Trickling is proved to be much more better.

..

the outcome is that it is worth doing because it kills the varroa and the varroa does more damage than the drizzle method to the bees...

But 15 years using experience by beekeepers tells opposite story.

Trickling is the best method ever invented. It works when hive has no brood.

Perizin trickling was very same 25 years ago. It coumafoss and it accumulated into wax.


..

repeatedly drizzling OA onto the bees i cannot see is a way to progress for the health of the colony.

There is no need to repeat it. It has been later proved that trickling is not so bad to bees as it was first said.

"You cannot see". - If you do not trust on researchers results, no one can help you.
.

This all has been discussed tens of time in this forum. And the reason is that BBKA has kept this issue very meshy.

Beekeeping stuff deliverers want that money flow in mite treatment goes via their hands and do not make your own medicines. That is all about in Canada and in USA.

Like in Scandinavia, we love more our bees than EU regulations.
No one in Finland repeat that "it is against the law" even if we have very same vet legistation as you have there.
NO one is in prison for oxalic acid.

 

[Goran]

I am not great experienced but I use OA from 2010. and had no problem with colonies, but I don't need to worry much about varroa till end of july/beginning of august. I was talking about one winter treatment per year..
Still I have great spring build up, and didn't saw some side effects.
Although I talked with one great Queen grower ( in thousands per year), he says he noticed negative influence on queen quality by OA. So the core of his apiary he treat by other measures. Also by the way said saw negative effect of coumaphoss on queens..

Even so, I will still use OA cause I didn't reach that level of beekeeping..

 

[Heather]

Not lost bees after OA,and done for a few years (apply sl warm) but so little varroa this year (5-8 drop after Apiguard) that I am not OA this year as my queen life problems are greater.

 

[Finman]

.
God bless all hobby beekeepers!!

OA trickling has been used 15 years widely.
It is surely that most reseached thing in beekeeping during last 10 years.

Beekeepers, who has hundreds of hives, have not reported about queen losses. Their queens live like before.

Queens long life? Ho many years... 4 or 5 years....

During winter queen losses are not rare.

I wonder how guys who do not even use trickling, they have the biggest losses by OA trickling. They tell again and again the same things which are not even true. Researching means nothin to them.

 

[Finman]

am not OA this year as my queen life problems are greater.

Based on what?

.What are your queen life problems?

 

[Finman]

.

Just look at that...in UK.

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/varroa.html#oxalic

"This method requires a relatively small amount of labour using a syringe.

35g of oxalic acid and 200g sugar are dissolved in 3/4 litre of water, then more water added to make up to one litre of solution.

Or use the ...calculator"



*************************

From where the guy has got that formula

Original recommendation is 15 g OA and 200 g water and 200 g sugar

.... and to make litre solution by adding water what in Heck!

How is it possible?

.

 

[Finman]

.
I put this reseach here because it is clearly reported. But it shows too that variations in results are wide.
There is no rule how much you will dead mites from hives.

Like this from Turkey 2010

Efficacies of Formic, Oxalic and Lactic Acids Against Varroa destructor in
Naturally Infested Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Colonies in Turkey [1]
Ahmet Onur GİRİŞGİN *  Levent AYDIN *

Summary
This study was performed to determine the efficacies of formic, oxalic and lactic acids in the control of the common ectoparasite Varroa destructor on naturally infested honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies in the Marmara region of Turkey.

Experimental colonies were divided in to five homogeneous groups of eight hives each. Formic, oxalic and lactic acids and coumaphos (Perizin®,a chemical with known efficacy, for comparison) were each applied to one group, with the fifth group serving as the untreated control.

Each colony was treated during three seasons, two autumn seasons and one spring. The efficacy of the acids was measured by the Henderson–Tilton formula, and the significance between the acids was determined via Tukey’s multiple comparison test.

In the first autumn, the highest percentage of the efficacy were detected in
- oxalic acid (93.7%)
- coumaphos (92.5%),
- formic acid (84.7%)
- and lactic acid (54.3%).

In spring, the efficacy rate was

- 65.6% in coumaphos while these rates were
- 21.4% in formic acid and
- 8.3% in oxalic and lactic acid each one. On the other hand,

in the second autumn, the efficacy rate was
- 96.9% in coumaphos,
- 95.6% in formic acid, -
- 93.3% in oxalic acid and
- 87.7% in lactic acid,

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have used it for three years with no problems. The first year I used trickle from Thorne then made up my own.
My drops were very low after MAQS so I'm not going to use OA this year.
As MAQS can be used with honey on I feel confident in using it early in the season if I spot a problem.

 

[Finman]

.
What is coumafoss?


I got my first coumafoss = Perizin in the year 1987. It was forbidden in Finland but mother in law brought it from Hamburg. Then came Apistan and it took Perizin's place in treatment after some years.

It is still used in researching. When they use some stuff, Perizin post treatment tells, how much mites are still alive. One way is kill the bees and look, how much they still have mites.

 

[Roola]

.
What is coumafoss?


I got my first coumafoss = Perizin in the year 1987. It was forbidden in Finland but mother in law brought it from Hamburg. Then came Apistan and it took Perizin's place in treatment after some years.

It is still used in researching. When they use some stuff, Perizin post treatment tells, how much mites are still alive. One way is kill the bees and look, how much they still have mites.

Finman, as an aside AND a compliment, your posts are much easier to understand now and I actually enjoy reading them, don't know if you're taking longer over them but thankyou. (That's all, not trying to hijack, carry on

 

[Lesley Hoppy]

Exactly what I thought i would do this year....
Last year, both colonies were fine when I applied the OA - but one died out soon after.
Have always wondered if the OA affected them on any way - no proof of course.
Both colonies had fondant on at the time..

 

[mbc]

I have used oxalic some winters, used it on some hives and not others, and not used it at all other winters.
My observations on oxalic on my own bees are that is particularly harsh on smaller, less robust colonies and any colonies which might have an underlying nosema problem. My personal belief is that it is just as harsh on large healthy colonies but they are more capable of riding the storm and to all appearances do not suffer, but in reality will have smaller populations due to reduced worker longevity.
I'm not trying to sell this belief at all, just commenting on my own observations. FWIW I would still use an oxalic trickle if I thought the varroa load was more compromising than an oxalix dribble, but hope not to have to.

 

[beeno]

Hi Nige.coll,
Hope this is not hijacking, because I am not going the scientific route, but title very general. A lot of people had problems with the application process last year killing their colonies. Although we are supposed to wait for a 3 week cold snap to minimise the chance of brood, the application itself should be done on a warm day (double figures preferably IMHO) OA at room temperature and PDQ. Only seen dead mites myself after treatment and more than autumn Thymol.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A lot of people had problems with the application process last year killing their colonies.

Never heard that!

Hi Nige.coll,
the application itself should be done on a warm day (double figures preferably IMHO)

And if Finny had to wait for double figures to OA he'd either be doing it in July or lighting bonfires round his hives!

 

[For want of a better word]

No problem with OA... just the thought of opening up a hive full of bees in midwinter is appalling!
Hence Vaporiser.............

 

[Finman]

Hi Nige.coll,
A lot of people had problems with the application process last year killing their colonies.

Reason was bad weathers and lack of good quality pollen. No one was killing their colonies, It just happened even in better families too.


Oxalic trickling does not save hives December, if varroa has violated allready the bees.

OA's duty is to hit down the number of last mites that colony stands better to next treatment in late summer. (thymol or formic acid)


When we look the reasons of winter losses, there is no cathegory "killed by oxalic acid"

You must have a great EGO, if you are going to be wiser than best varroa researchers in Europe.

What I have noticed during 10 years OA using, I have never had so miserable colonies as when using OA. Reason is that I have not used other treatment methods and it is absolutely necessary to treat colonies before they start to rear winter bees.

My friends, who uses only thymol pads during autumn feeding, their hives are far in better condition.

We have had 2 early winters here and when beekeepers prepared to trickle their hives, it was one feet snow ovet the roof and -10C. We waited that it becomes a mild weather and then we do it. But that mild weather di not come.

Many experienced beekeepers have met big losses during last 3 years, and propably the plan to treat mites missed, because of early winter.

Summer 2012 was very wet, and it caused lack of pollen and then big losses in clusters size.

But in Finland too, if I say to beekeepers, that may I trickle your hives for free, many guys go into panic and soon they have better to do than bee near hives.

 

[Finman]

No problem with OA... just the thought of opening up a hive full of bees in midwinter is appalling!
Hence Vaporiser.............

I repeat:

You must have a great EGO, if you are going to be wiser than best varroa researchers in Europe.

.

 

[Nige.Coll]

i'm no scientist the thread is as title .

i know how and when to do the treatment i just like to read about anything i am applying to my bees .
the process has been well thought out and there are reasons why it is done when it is.
it's all about deciding if the varroa count makes it worth it.
it can be hard on colonies but varroa can be harder.

i'm not against using the method but i don't want to blindly treat just because everyone else does.

i used apiguard at the end of august and it worked fine on 1 hive but did nothing on the other. the bees didn't touch the stuff just ignored it.
the hive had varroa and that treatment did nothing so i had to think of another way to sort it out. i made a vapouriser and used OA in that way and the varroa drop was quite alarming. it's old but it worked and now i can go into winter with more confidence .

i'm not saying there is a right and wrong way i'm not poo pooing what anyone else does .
you can't learn anything from a closed book.

 

[For want of a better word]

i'm no scientist the thread is as title .

i know how and when to do the treatment i just like to read about anything i am applying to my bees .
the process has been well thought out and there are reasons why it is done when it is.
it's all about deciding if the varroa count makes it worth it.
it can be hard on colonies but varroa can be harder.

i'm not against using the method but i don't want to blindly treat just because everyone else does.

​

You must have a great EGO, if you are going to be wiser than best varroa researchers in Europe.

It would be crass of anyone responsible for an animal's welfare to blindly follow what "others" tell them... no matter how big their ego may be!