Let the bees raise a new queen now or introduce a mated laying queen?

[meidel]

Bearing in mind it was on 4th July when the test frame was inserted and I'm in London would the bees have enough time to get her mated and laying with sufficient over wintering bees?

Some background info - these are 2 strong colonies which swarmed and were combined on 24th June. They are queenless as the swarmed queen is in another box and laying well. So there are two 14x12 brood boxes of bees in there with still about 8 frames of capped brood left to emerge. They don't have a queen and I was going to requeen them anyway with a less swarmy stock. There is a strong, weather permitting, nectar flow where I am at the moment so there are 3 supers on them as well.

My questions are -

1. If I were to requeen with a mated queen, when is the best time to do that?

2. If I were to let them raise a queen with a test frame, as in 4th July + 16 days - 20th July to emerge and laying in 1-2 weeks - early August. Would the queen be able to lay sufficient brood of over-wintering bees?

 

[Hawklord]

From egg to laying queen has taken mine 5-6 weeks.

 

[BBG]

Read what ITLD says here

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19046

should help.

 

[Tom Bick]

Bearing in mind it was on 4th July when the test frame was inserted and I'm in London would the bees have enough time to get her mated and laying with sufficient over wintering bees?

Some background info - these are 2 strong colonies which swarmed and were combined on 24th June. They are queenless as the swarmed queen is in another box and laying well. So there are two 14x12 brood boxes of bees in there with still about 8 frames of capped brood left to emerge. They don't have a queen and I was going to requeen them anyway with a less swarmy stock. There is a strong, weather permitting, nectar flow where I am at the moment so there are 3 supers on them as well.

My questions are -

1. If I were to requeen with a mated queen, when is the best time to do that?

2. If I were to let them raise a queen with a test frame, as in 4th July + 16 days - 20th July to emerge and laying in 1-2 weeks - early August. Would the queen be able to lay sufficient brood of over-wintering bees?

I am assuming you have QC's on the test frame?

 

[Finman]

.
With0ut doupt, bye a queen.

 

[oliver90owner]

Sorry but found it difficult to decipher the background information, but as I see it your two questions are relatively easy to sort out.

New bought-in laying queen - as soon as possible is the obvious universal answer, or am I missing something in this particular scenario?

Re a raised queen in the colony is also simply a matter of thinking 'from when are the winter bees all going to be raised?' The proverbial piece of string question, 'cos we don't have a clue as to when brooding will cease. But a good young laying queen, laying 1000+ eggs per day would possibly lay,say, 60,000 eggs by the end of September. How many wintering bees would you expect? 20k? Only three weeks brooding time?

Last year winter brood was still being produced in December, so my answer is plenty of time.

However, the weather can make a huge difference as can the quality of the queen, so emergency queens are not my favourite, late supercedure is always a risk, treating with apiguard (for instance) can cause loss of brood, as in a reduced lay-rate, or even killed brood in some instances.

So my answer is 'should easily'. Come the end of the season there are other alternatives to be sure the colony has enough wintering bees, and alternatives also, if for some reason the colony is not strong enough for wntering in a full hive. You have another colony as a starting point.

I suggest you draw a time line and insert a few expected scenarios. They will all show it is easily possible, bar another disaster with the emerging queen.

 

[meidel]

Ok thanks guys for the replies

Hawklord - that's my worry too that she'll take a while to start laying IF she gets mated, etc

BBG - I had read the thread and ITLD was inconclusive re the 2 questions I posited, his recommendation as I understood it was introduce new cell or new queen - the diff between the bees in that thread and mine is that mine is currently a fairly strong colony with brood still in the process of emerging for the next 10 days at least.

Tom - yeah need to check either tomorrow afternoon or Tuesday at latest but I'm fairly certain about queenlessness - because I'd shaken frames and knocked out all swarm cells the same day as catching the prime swarm and then 6 days later.

Finman - I wondered when is the latest I should consider introducing a bought queen bearing in mind nectar flow at the moment, etc...

 

[mbc]

Bearing in mind it was on 4th July when the test frame was inserted and I'm in London would the bees have enough time to get her mated and laying with sufficient over wintering bees?

Some background info - these are 2 strong colonies which swarmed and were combined on 24th June. They are queenless as the swarmed queen is in another box and laying well. So there are two 14x12 brood boxes of bees in there with still about 8 frames of capped brood left to emerge. They don't have a queen and I was going to requeen them anyway with a less swarmy stock. There is a strong, weather permitting, nectar flow where I am at the moment so there are 3 supers on them as well.

My questions are -

1. If I were to requeen with a mated queen, when is the best time to do that?

2. If I were to let them raise a queen with a test frame, as in 4th July + 16 days - 20th July to emerge and laying in 1-2 weeks - early August. Would the queen be able to lay sufficient brood of over-wintering bees?

Time line suggests you have a virgin waiting to mate and get into lay.
My suggestion would be to try a test frame and if it shows Q- , then introduce a new queen from elsewhere.

 

[meidel]

Hi Rab

sorry if the background info seems opaque but thanks for the reply.

I guess I wanted to see if I could save the odd £40 on the purchase of a new queen if there's still time enough for the QC to develop, emerge, mature, mate and lay!

And also some have suggested that foragers without brood to care for will produce plenty of yield - although being new at this game, I see any yield as a bonus. That's why I ask about latest time - but do realise that's a how long is a piece of string type question with vagaries of UK weather thrown in!

 

[meidel]

The revised background information

the combined colonies both came from swarmed hives - as soon as the prime swarms were caught, I knocked out all the QCs immediately and 6 days later to prevent casts - these two hives were combined on 24th June with newspaper method, both had capped brood and some mature larvae in roughly a total of 14 frames. By 4th July the number of capped brood was found on 8 frames and I introduced a test frame of BIAS inc eggs.

Meanwhile the primes are in boxes elsewhere in the apiary.

 

[Tom Bick]

I am wondering what was the temperament of the two combined colonies?

If hopelessly Q- I would expect you to say running around the comb and perhaps grumpy.

They are cleaver in hiding QC's and the result of your test frame will be interesting.

 

[hiveabee]

.
With0ut doupt, bye a queen.

We have had such bad weather, If you have a mated queen then use Her. She will get cracking very soon

 

[Hawklord]

I wonder how many beeks in the uk have managed to produce well mated queens with this ever changing climate. A good quality mated queen will pay for itself.

 

[Bates]

I wonder how many beeks in the uk have managed to produce well mated queens with this ever changing climate. A good quality mated queen will pay for itself.

We have produced small amount for ourselves, expecting them to fail early. But really weather not on our side .

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I wonder how many beeks in the uk have managed to produce well mated queens with this ever changing climate. A good quality mated queen will pay for itself.

I have produced a fair amount of queens from mini-nucs. The large hives have been very poor at producing queens - they have generally disappeared this year.

However there have been period where no mating has occurred for long periods of time.
Not a good year for mating

 

[mbc]

However there have been period where no mating has occurred for long periods of time.
Not a good year for mating

A shocking season for drone laying queens

 

[Bates]

 

[meidel]

I am wondering what was the temperament of the two combined colonies?

If hopelessly Q- I would expect you to say running around the comb and perhaps grumpy.

They are cleaver in hiding QC's and the result of your test frame will be interesting.

They were tetchier than usual - as you say it'll be interesting to find out.

We;ve had hit and misses with virgin queens - one black is laying steadily, the other 2 from swarmy stock, one swarmed, the other disappeared after layign 5 frames of brood. Then there were another 3 or 4 from swarmy stock whcih became drone layers or just weren't any good and had to be helped along the way.

 

[meidel]

6 QCs on the test frame - there were still young larvae on the frame so would need to be vigilant over the next few days in case the bees decide to return to swarm mode!

 

[Finman]

.

I suggest you draw a time line and insert a few expected scenarios.

Oliver, stop drinking at once and go to sleep.

You advice 2-hive owner to rear one queen. And the scenarios.