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Bayer & BBKA​


There are many questions that could be raised now the final count has been conducted regarding the Bayer – BBKA liaison.

Let’s start at grass roots, the individual member of a beekeeping association.
Imagine there are 300 members in an association.
How many contribute towards the efficient running of their association?
How many show indifference and show a distinct lack of interest in what the few are trying to achieve for the association?

My conservative estimate would be at least 70% of individual members of an association pay their yearly subscriptions and have nothing further to do with the running of their association.

One comment I heard was “the committee can do all the business as I have no interest in the association activities”.

Then we have the beginner, who is full of enthusiasm and wants’ to learn. After the first year keeping bees they then realise the association do not help them any more, because the whole concept of the association is to get as many new beekeepers as possible and build up the numbers. Once a member has done two maybe three years they are then on their own.
Is it any wonder the general membership are apathetic towards the association? Not really.

So the association does not confer to its members an important issue such as the Bayer – BBKA liaison, because it knows the response will be very limited to say the least.

Now it’s down to the committee to decide what they would feel would be the general consensus of opinion if the membership where to get together and vote. (Note how many turn up for an association AGM). The members of the committee now take it upon themselves to consider the issue and discuss the relevant points of the issue. Then a vote is taken. Now depending on how the vote went it is now mandatory on how the association delegate will vote at the BBKA ADM.

Let’s see the process in full.
75% of association members couldn’t care less.
Committee comprising of about 10-15 members take on the responsibility of casting a vote on the issues being discussed.

Then the individual delegate to the ADM votes as according to the committee votes, but the whole number of the association is taken into consideration when the final votes are counted.

Therefore 225 members who couldn’t care less what happens have their vote counted to coincide with the committee votes.

Is that fair?
Is that democracy?

Just a thought.

Regards;
 

Hivemaker. 

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Well if that above is the theory,i think instead of advising new beekeepers to join the bbka and local association,like i myself have done many times in the past,it will be better to advise them not to join an organisation that is more interested in killing bee's ,and many other species along with them.

Advise them to learn from local beekeepers in their area,from places like this forum,and by giving unlimited support via e-mail and telephone.
There are good beekeepers around who are willing to teach others,and the new beekeepers get to save the money they would give to the chemical company.

They could be advised not to join bbka via websites and other media,and the reasons why.
If they want to give some money for bee research,then they could perhaps give it to the czech bee research institute,or some other such organization that is trying to do things for the good of bee's and beekeeping instead of one that has more interest in killing them.

I have dealings with large no's of new beekeepers every year,and this is the advice that would be better for them and the bee's.
It will take some time,but at least thousands of new beekeepers can be steered away from the bbka pesticide company,and there no's will dwindle.
 
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Bcrazy 

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There are a couple of comments you mentioned that I would like to reply too.

it will be better to advise them not to join an organisation that is more interested in killing bee's ,
With ref to the beginner, he will need insurance mainly due to the inability to handle bees so as not to cause problems. Disease is another issue where a beginner is at risk.
I do not truly believe that the BBKA are consciously involved with killing insects but it the sponsorship deal that makes the whole issue bitter.

There are good beekeepers around who are willing to teach others
There are also bad beekeepers who teach beginners. There is no standard to work too to become a good teacher to others. We know members who will never make a good beekeeper as long as................... . I sincerely believe that a standard should be set for those wishing to teach new members, then we would not see bad habits being passed on.

It will take some time,but at least thousands of new beekeepers can be steered away from the bbka pesticide company,and there no's will dwindle.
Hivemaker, it will take forever to the abolition of the BBKA as I have mentioned before the general membership will go their own sweet way and pay their subscriptions each year and will not have a clue what's happening in the world of Apiology.

What is the answer to an alternative to the BBKA until the liaison with the Bayer Group is finally nullified?

Regards;
 

Hivemaker. 

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I agree bcrazy with most of what you say,but for me i think a clear conscience that i am not associated to that association and what they stand for at the moment.And who knows maybe there are others who feel the same,but from the voting it appears most beekeepers think pesticides are pretty good for bee's.and no it won't lead to the abolition of the bbka,but if i and just one friend of mine who deals with a lot of new beekeepers,can put a few hundred a year off joining then its worth it.
 
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mikethebee 

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Hivemaker Bcrazy
all i can say to your statement is get off your fat ass and do something about it , your either in or out. stop the messing about.
all the best mike.
 

Bcrazy 

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To mikethebee,

How eloquently put, your rhetoric is so open and easy to understand, you truly are a Thespian at heart.

I speak for myself on this issue of Bayer & BBKA.

I have just rejoined the BBKA as I wish to obtain the certificate for a Master Beekeeper. This will enable me to further my knowledge to take the National Diploma in Beekeeping. Its purely a selfish reason why I have paid my subscription to my association, and in turn become a member of the BBKA.

Mike you and others can procrastinate all you want but the decision has been voted on by the appointed delegates at the ADM. The outcome as we all now know is the "status quo" remains. I don't know if any constraints have been in place regarding when the topic can be discussed again at an ADM in the future.

Some are saying the BBKA days are numbered. Absolute rubbish.

Read what has been written at the beginning of this thread with reference to the apathy shown by association members, this will probably be the same in years to come.

There are rumours, and no more than rumours of a New BKA being considered. Just sit back and try to gauge the logistics of setting up a national BKA. I do not believe it possible.

So there we are mikethebee, that's my side of things.

I look forward to your response with relish.

Regards;
 

beesontoast 

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BBKA etc

As one of those who did their best to persuade other beeks to vote against the motion, I am naturally disappointed with the outcome, but still hopeful that the idiots in charge will see the damage they have done by mooting such a divisive policy and quickly retract it. I won't be holding my breath, however.

I have no personal stake in attempting to set up an alternative, as I have a serious dislike of committees, hierarchies and bureaucracy in general, but I would support any sensibly organized group of people who did so.

I will not be renewing my membership of BBKA, as I believe they have shown themselves to be unworthy to represent British beekeeping. Their refusal to support the German beekeepers after the disastrous incident last May; their inability to admit that ANY pesticides may be a problem for bees; their arrogant censorship of comments from their website and refusal of any exec member to join in discussion of the subject on their forum; the utter lack of any response from Tim Lovett to questions and comments; enough is enough. Until I see serious reforms I will have nothing to do with them.

As to examinations and qualifications, I passed the first two modules and could see myself being dragged down the path of 'conventional' beekeeping, with which I have a number of issues, and as I have no interest in having letters after my name, it bothers me not one whit that I won't get the gong. If others feel differently, that is up to them.

We all have to go with our consciences on this issue. For myself, I cannot belong to any organization that wishes to associate itself with the likes of Bayer or Syngeta - companies that spend millions on lies and propaganda to persuade people that their toxic rubbish is somehow 'good for you' - and in the case of Bayer are frequently caught out and prosecuted for killing and maiming its victims. If the BBKA want to be mentioned in the same sentence as that form of pond slime, then they too become tainted, as far as I am concerned.

I run a busy beekeeping forum dedicated to top bar hives and 'natural' beekeeping, so I don't have time to post frequently here, but I will be watching developments with interest and look forward to moving on in a spirit of co-operation with all beekeepers who are genuinely dedicated to the welfare of bees, and not just in it for the money.

Best wishes to all,
Phil Chandler
www.biobees.com
see also:
www.britishbeekeeping.com
www.bayer-kills-bees.com
 

Widdershins 

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Good to see you here Beesontoast, Welcome to the fourm!
 

Bcrazy 

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Do as I say not do as I do.

My Chairman of our BKA has sent out information that was discussed at the ADM, which I must say is very quick and I have thanked him for this.

I have also asked for a rundown on the voting proceedurs, as if the full membership of a local association is taken in consideration for the total votes, then why has the membership of local associations not been asked to vote by the BKA? If the individual member does not vote how on earth can it be counted as they have voted to come to a total count?

What's happening here, is it a case of Do as I say not Do as I do.

Regards;
 

Poly Hive 

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Just a little point please, the BBKA in no shape or form represent UK beekeepers, they merely represent the English ones. (For their sins)

PH
 

Bcrazy 

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Right guy's,

I have posted on the BBKA Forum a number of questions and I now believe I have the answer why some members of our BBKA members have not had the oppotunity to vote on the proposals set out by the Exc. committee.

I also questioned my chairmam about the local level of proceedurs concerning the ADM.

Local level.
Doug
Thank you for such a comprehensive answer.
I do understand the voting system both for the Local BKA and the BBKA Exc.

As I mentioned to you tonight there is no slant or displeasure with the way you conducted yourself and explained the outcome of the ADM, as normal you are above reproach. Thank you.

There are just a couple of questions arising from your reply and these are;

1. Para 2 line 6 beginning 300.

Yes it is difficult trying to contact 300 members, but in a National meeting I feel we should at least try to find a way to inform members of the forthcoming debate and the proposals put forward by the Exc. com...

You then go on to say the Committee is elected by the members to act on their behalf.
Entirely agree for local level decisions.
As for National level where it affects the whole of the BBKA then I honestly feel there should be some form of information being passed to the membership.

2. Para 3.

The agro-chemical????????????????meetings.

A member did request to attend and he had his say. Great. I feel we have an obligation to the membership where a National vote is required to inform them of a special meeting to be held to discuss the following?. At a time and place.
I know that if the committee members were not counted then there might be half a dozen (on a good day) turn up, but at least we have given them the chance to have their say. In doing this we have done everything possible to meet with the current assessment by the BBKA Exc. and that is our delegate can truthfully say that our membership have had an opportunity to discuss and vote on the propositions put forwarded by the Exc. of the BBKA.

Your right of course Doug even if some members did turn up it would not have changed the final outcome. I agreed with the outcome, no I did not agree with the outcome, but accepted the votes and the final decision, and in no way would I challenge that.

Doug I know we are not the only County BKA that did not inform or hold a special meeting because everyone is in the same boat, and that is, its only a few who do all the work, the remainder could not care less what happens.

Finally, I still do not understand how the membership votes are accepted as a true record of events when we know that members have not been consulted on the proposals.

Thank you once again Doug,

Best regards;
Mo

BBKA Forum



Hi Roger and Co.

Thanks everyone for trying to explain the system of voting. I fully understand how the mechanism should work.

By Roger,
I think the current system works and would be difficult to better. Yes, there are accusations of it being undemocratic, but as has already been said it's not the fault of the BBKA, it's lower down.
Why don't you come out and say its down t the Local BKA's to get their act together regarding the voting system.

From Chris Broad
Not quite. [U ]BBKA is obliged to accept [/ U] that the county delegate has been given authority to vote on behalf of the members of that county. Even if the BBKA exec. is aware of undemocratic practices in a particular county, it is powerless to take action. The power resides with members of the county according to their own local constitution.
The Exc. com. is obliged to accept . What!!!! Are you saying although they may think the Local BKA have not informed their membership and asked them to vote on the proposals, they will accept it as it has taken place.
If so then something is definitely wrong. Someone is not being honest and open.

Steve Rose
I am sorry Bcrazy but you have to try another way of expressing your problem. It still sounds to me like you are asking for a referendum.
No problem Steve, I am trying to find out why certain procedures were not carried out in accordance with the constitution. i.e. that every member of the BBKA has had the chance to vote in their local BKA on the proposals put forward to the members.


Now I think I have found the answer why some members of our BBKA have not had the chance to vote regarding any proposals pertaining to the ADM.
It?s because the Local BKA are not doing their job correctly when they receive the proposals from Exc. com.

One counter voice was As a committee we have been voted on to carry out the running the business of the local association, and in doing so we find it extremely difficult to contact all the local membership to inform the of the proposals and hold a special meeting. The number that would attend would be less than double figures.

Yes there is logic in what was said but......... we must give the membership the opportunity to vote and if they do not turn up then they virtually said I am not bothered either way what happens.

All I want to see is Honesty and Openness by all concerned, where from the place I am standing there is something not quite right.


So what I have deduced from these conversations is that the Exc com of the BBKA rely on the honesty and openness of County representitives to have carried out the correct proceedure for infrming their membership and obtaining a vote from them.
If the membership do not bother then they have no axe to grind.

I still don't understand how votes can be accepted when there might be incorrect numbers being given by the delegate of County Associations.
In my mind there is something not correct with the way this voting system has been carried out.

Regards;
 

mikethebee 

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beesontoast Phil Chandler .
Thank you for your very good reply I could and would not put it so polite,

As you may not know I am in Australia at the moment, The beekeepers of WA Perth had a 65 birthday meeting to wish my old mate Peter Datchin happy birthday? One subject that came up unbeknown to me was the BBKA fiasco and introduction of GM crops to WA,
I felt awful when asked; I had to agree the BBKA had done the deal.

As for having to join the BBKA for a master beekeeper certificate that?s crap.

Those on yer that don?t know if there ass is bored or punched it?s too dam late THE DEALS DONE, Make yer mind up your in or out .
all the best mike.
 

Bcrazy 

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To mikethebee down under.

I can only assume that this is directed at me.

As for having to join the BBKA for a master beekeeper certificate that?s crap.
What an eloquent turn of phrase.
Mike would you care to expand on your thinking as I do not know of another way to obtain the certificate to allow me to to try and obtain the NDB.

Those on yer that don?t know if there ass is bored or punched it?s too dam late
I think the correct terminology is drilled or countersunk.

Anyway I don't understand the last sentence where you say
THE DEALS DONE, Make yer mind up your in or out .
I assume your asking are the members of this forum it they are either in or out of the BBKA.
Well Mike I am in the BBKA. So what?

Enjoy you time in Oz

Regards;
 

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