Isolation starvation avoidance

[eatmorebeans]

As I lost two colonies to this last year I am naturally keen to avoid a repetition.

An idea I am considering is making the hive more vertical than horizontal, as the cluster can obviously move up and down a lot easier than sideways. Also less heat would be lost.

So, I am considering putting half filled boxes (6 frames in each) on top of each other, and making a big divider board to close off the rest of the space.

Naturally this is all dependant on the size of the colony, but the one I am concerned about has just superceded so will likely be best in the equivalent of one brood box.

STD Nationals by the way.

anyone tried this idea?

Tony

 

[Ivor Kemp]

How many 'boxes' are you considering?

Don't know what others think but my concern would be for heat loss. The more empty space you have the colder it gets inside the hive.

What was your set up and feeding regime last winter that led to starvation?

 

[Ivor Kemp]

And I did read what you wrote about a divider board and your opinions on heat loss.

 

[itma]

Standard hive, clear coverboard, be prepared to open up in the winter. Simple.


With a clear coverboard, you can see much of what is going on, without opening the hive (and lighting a smoker, getting suited-up, etc).

However, opening up in winter is nothing like a death sentence, whatever the BBKA might say.
You don't need to open up weekly, but you should do it well before late March.
Much better to open, and rearrange frames if needed, than to leave them to starve.
You really should check inside well before the Spring Cleaning that the BBKA call "First Inspection".

When the hive is open (as for Oxalic), one should maximise the information gathering (try and learn as much as possible about what's happening in there), and do any remedial stuff as well, while it is open.



/// Because the standard national brood is so small (its hard to get 20kg of stores in there), going brood and a half or double brood is not a daft idea. Usually, they'll clear the stores from the bottom up - so the clear coverboard is still very useful.

 

[user 6228]

As I lost two colonies to this last year I am naturally keen to avoid a repetition.

An idea I am considering is making the hive more vertical than horizontal, as the cluster can obviously move up and down a lot easier than sideways. Also less heat would be lost.

So, I am considering putting half filled boxes (6 frames in each) on top of each other, and making a big divider board to close off the rest of the space.

Naturally this is all dependant on the size of the colony, but the one I am concerned about has just superceded so will likely be best in the equivalent of one brood box.

STD Nationals by the way.

anyone tried this idea?

Tony

your idea will work but only if you sealed off completely (i mean airtight) the unused half of each box . Its not volume but the amount of surface area in thermal contact with the outside that the warm air can reach.. You would then still need to increase the insulation to make it effective so as to enable the heat stratification through enough height at a reasonable temperature. This is better done with custom made boxes.
The easiest approach is to go overboard with insulation in the normal configuration and thus reduce the time in forced cluster.

 

[Skyhook]

An idea I am considering is making the hive more vertical than horizontal, as the cluster can obviously move up and down a lot easier than sideways. Also less heat would be lost.

Tony

Why would it? A sphere has the lowest ratio of surface area to volume. Assuming we're sticking with box shapes, a cube is the most efficient. By making the hive tall and thin, you're increasing the surface area- also, at the start of winter, when the cluster is at the bottom, the heat will be chimneying away from them.

What you want is insulation- top insulation particularly. This is easy, kingspan on top of the crownboard, 50mm at least. If you have standard wooden nationals you can also insulate the ends of the boxes- a piece of 25mm kingspan cut to fit between the top and bottom rails. Deep roofs help here.

Insulating the sides is slightly different. If the colony doesn't need a full box then take out 1 frame and fit 25mm kingspan each side- or more depending on size of colony, they don't want a lot of spare space.

Arguably, if they do fill the box, they are strong enough to have less need of insulation and top insulation combined with OMF should suffice.

If you are leaving them a super, that should be underneath with no QE.


Where's Derek when you need him?
.

 

[user 6228]

Here I am... This is going to give away some of the talk for later in the year

Why would it? A sphere has the lowest ratio of surface area to volume. Assuming we're sticking with box shapes, a cube is the most efficient. By making the hive tall and thin, you're increasing the surface area- also, at the start of winter, when the cluster is at the bottom, the heat will be chimneying away from them.
.

you are correct if the object is a solid with a heat source in its centre. however this is a gas filled container. The gas being mobile and hotter at the top and therefore losing more heat at the top. thus tall and thin is better than a cube.

What you want is insulation- top insulation particularly. This is easy, kingspan on top of the crownboard, 50mm at least. If you have standard wooden nationals you can also insulate the ends of the boxes- a piece of 25mm kingspan cut to fit between the top and bottom rails. Deep roofs help here.

you get it right here

Insulating the sides is slightly different. If the colony doesn't need a full box then take out 1 frame and fit 25mm kingspan each side- or more depending on size of colony, they don't want a lot of spare space.

Arguably, if they do fill the box, they are strong enough to have less need of insulation and top insulation combined with OMF should suffice.

If you are leaving them a super, that should be underneath with no QE.


Where's Derek when you need him?
.

Volume doesnt matter its the conducting surface area , the material conductance and the temperature of the air touching it.

if its hot air decrease conductance and reduce the area the hot touches

dont let hot air escape either...

 

[itma]

I'm sorry, but I (rashly) presumed that ecent top insulation was a 'given' and that the question then was specifically about avoiding *isolation* starvation.

For which I think the answer is to dare to look.
So you can act, if necessary.

 

[user 6228]

I'm sorry, but I (rashly) presumed that ecent top insulation was a 'given' and that the question then was specifically about avoiding *isolation* starvation.

For which I think the answer is to dare to look.
So you can act, if necessary.

isolation starvation is a consequence of forced clustering... you need to change the heat losses of the hive so that tight clustering is not a live aand death imperative.
Hive wall and roof conductance affect heat loss but so does the aspect ratio of the hive.

 

[Finman]

- First, big cluster for winter
- reduce the wintering room so that there is no vain space. Otherwise bees heat empty space.

- put brood frames in the centre because bees start wintering where they had last brood.

- Obviously, no need to talk about 2-box wintering.

- Isolation starvataion? You do not even have winter in UK

- Dont feed for fun bees when they are in winter rest. It encourage brooding and then they will be easily starved.

- Get insulated boxes that bees can save energy

- what about mesh floor. Is your place windy?

 

[Finman]

specifically about avoiding *isolation* starvation.

.

Isolation starvatíon? What is that? That the colony starves out but there is food inside?

There is not special treatment for "isolation starvation".- even he asks it.

The winter preparation are made wrong.

It is possible too, that the colony is big during feeding but varroa or nosema reduces radically the colony during autumn.

 

[richardbees]

You can find out where the cluster is by looking at the debris on the OMF inset, also by taking a flash photo up through the OMF and having a glazed cover board. I'm happy to open up in mid-winter to trickle oxalic acid - and removed what I judged to be "used-up" empty frames next to the cluster.

As Fin says, we don't have long killer winters in the UK and a lot of 'informed' advice is from pre OMF days.

 

[Finman]

.
5 frame cluster in autumn in 10 frames box is not at all good setup.
It needs then dummy board.

 

[Finman]

You can find out where the cluster is by looking at the debris.

More easy is to open inner cover.

You may predict cluster size from last brood area:

- 5 brood frames - 6 frames

- 3 brood frames - join them

- 8 brood frames, one box but not two.

 

[richardbees]

Fin
I was referring to 'isolation starvation' when an established brood cluster in e.g. january loses contact with frames of stores

 

[Finman]

Fin
I was referring to 'isolation starvation' when an established brood cluster in e.g. january loses contact with frames of stores

That is basic knowledge in wintering, how do you make a setup.
The cluster is simply too small in a big room. I wonder how it is possible in UK Palm Beach.

In Finland it occus when temps are 2 months -20C.

Isolation starvation happens too, when cold period is long, and a cluster cannot move from a seam and food in that seam is finish.
During mild weathers the cluster reorganize itself. And mild is here 0- -5C.


But question about isolation starvation is not wise, because you cannot winter bees accordingt that. The whole wintering thing is important, and not one view.

And don't stuck into that one question. I do not even believe that question is relevant in UK. It happens but it is not a key to issue.

Or do you want to just talk, and not actually winter your bees

.
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[pargyle]

This is a useful thread - it's a subject that I've been pondering as well. There were lots of losses last winter when bees still had stores in the hive but just didn't move to it and I feel sure there are a lot of newbies out here that are as concerned about this as I am.

In my long hive my bees are currently on 15 frames and the brood area stretches across most of them with honey arcs over the top. I assume that, as autumn approaches, the brood area will reduce and they will back fill with stores. .

My hive is very well insulated (double skinned timber with polystyrene sandwich in both the walls and the roof and there will be at least 50mm kingspan over the crown board come winter as well) so I'm hopeful they will remain mobile. The hive would hold 22 frames in total so there will be insulation in the spaces beyond the dummy boards containing the active frames. The dummy boards are solid 30mm timber as well.

I have a periscope entrance which is not in use at present but i will put it into use in the autumn so there is no upward heat loss from the hive entrance.

I've bought a remote temperature and humidity meter and I will have the sensors from this inside the hive, above the frames, which will give me an indication of how well they are managing their environment (I know it's not perfect - just an indication).

I'm also thinking that I will have see through crown boards, as well, by the time winter arrives so that I can have an early peek before spring fully arrives. The see through crown boards will each cover 5 or 6 frames so if I have to feed them I would only need to remove one of them to put some fondant above the frames.

I was going to move the brood area to one end of the hive on the last inspection pre-winter so that they can only move in one direction and that direction will contain the frames full of stores.

Well, that's my plan - I can't think of much else that can be done.

 

[itma]

Regarding winter inspections.


While visiting LASI at the University of Sussex, I learned about their Oxalic treatment protocol.
They advise a frames-out inspection and sealed brood culling (if any is found), about 3 days before the Oxalic treatment.
This is to ensure that absolutely zero mites can hide from the Oxalic in sealed brood cells.
Any small patch of midwinter brood is going to be a liability to the colony rather than an asset during the winter.

And in their estimation, a full frames-out inspection on a decent day in the middle of winter does not represent any danger to the colony. Rather, improving the efficacy of the Oxalic mite-kill by brood culling pays back many times over in improving the colony's health.


Remember also that devotees of Lactic (rather than Oxalic) have to remove each frame and spray both sides of it for their treatment.


Briefly opening up the hive on a decent day (+5/10C?) in winter is not going to kill your colony. You can, incidentally or primarily, check for stores and make them contiguous and more central.
However, leaving your hive tight shut until March can potentially be the death of them. If you think that is over-dramatic, read back and see the number of threads this Spring where "forget them for the winter" coincided with "I've discovered my colony is dead".

 

[Suzi Q]

That's interesting. Why not treat at the same time as culling the sealed brood? I suppose the bees are not clustered after pulling the frames? Would the whole frame be removed with any sealed brood? or just the brood cut out?

 

[HM Honey]

In my first winter, under advice, i used a crown board with a hole at each end and left a block of fondant over each hole. May have helped, may not have but I didnt lose any of my then three colonies. All three came through the winter.