Is there anything a hobbyist beekeeper can do about swarms?

[fenster]

Well ... take this kindly - but if you carry on like this the likelihood is that your bees will swarm to the point where you have no bees left, let alone any to give away. Colonies don't just swarm once, when they get going there can be several caste swarms ... and each one depletes the colony.

Do you inspect for queen cells ? If you do - what do you do when you find them ?

You really need to read up on artificial swarms ... a good place to start is here in Wally Shaws booklet which is really the bible for beginners who find queen cells (and a great reminder for those of us with ageing grey cells as well).

https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/wbka-booklet-english-PDF.pdf
It's not very responsible to allow swarms to emanate from your hives - they are going to find a home somewhere and that could be in a neighbours chimney or roof space and they then have the problem of removing them.

If you want more of a read then get a copy of the Haynes Manual of Beekeeping - it will lead you through the beekeeping year and allow you to pre-empt some of the things that may happen and what to do when they inevitably do ...

Thanks for this. To answer your question I have been pretty diligent with weekly inspections until I ran into some difficulty keeping up this spring. I do understand the undesirability of swarms to neighbours as I said in my OP. Of the swarms from my two hives up until today, I boxed one and gave it away; I followed one to a nearby nature park; I have another another in a nuc. Another lodged in a holly bush in my garden for over a week, resisted the swarm lure and has now succumbed to the unseasonal weather and fallen to the ground. Of course avoidance is the objective and the key to that I understand better now is the art of splitting (which I have done) and recombining (which I have not). A respondent in here said that I will likely need twice the amount of kit as you need hives - probably in the context of wanting only two hives - and that's helpful.

I had another cast (?) swarm today which has come to rest in a tall tree overhanging my garden so I will have a go at recovering that tomorrow. That makes primary plus two from that hive but there are surprisingly many bees left considering the size of the clusters outside. I have recovered one of this hive's previous swarms in a nuc and hope that will yield resources in the event that my two hives don't recover.

I tried to follow the instructions in the wbka information and found just one virgin queen to free. I destroyed other queen cells as instructed. My other hive which has also swarmed twice had no capped queen cells today, plenty of bees but no brood capped or otherwise.

 

[pargyle]

Well ! ... what a baptism of fire .... they say you never learn anything unless you make mistakes and I'm sure you've found enough on your own without anyone on here pointing to anything you have done.

I bought a swarm catcher like this ...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/search?s=swarm+catcher
(Not this actual one - mine was a cheap one on promotion) but it's just a bag you can put on the end of a pole and you pull a cord and the opening closes once you have the bees in it. When you have bees in a bush it's sometimes a bit easier to get them into a bag than it is trying to sweep them into a box or a skep ... I made a pole out of 20mm copper tube that I can extend up to 6 metres - I have a tree lopper that will reach about 5 metres so, with a helper or three hands you can get the bag around them and just cut the branch(es) they are hanging on and pull the draw string ... you can get the majority and then tip them into your swarm collection brood box.

More kit .... I know ... it goes on and on doesn't it ?

But with your bees propensity for swarming I'd see if you can get someone handy with a needle and thread to see if they could knock an old (or new !) pillow case into something similar ... a wire coat hanger to stiffen the 'mouth' and a broom handle ... either that or watch out for one when they come up on promotion ... of course, you know, that as soon as you have one your bees will NEVER swarm again !

 

[ericbeaumont]

I'm currently thinking about 2xBS Nationals, brood box plus 2 supers (and all the other components/frames, Queen Ex, crown, lid etc) - do I need the spare kit from the start or should I plan for this if they over winter well and have them on hand for season 2???

Yes, buy over winter and prep frames in spring, avoiding the need to make them in season (my job today).

Here goes with a list of food for thought, but before the boxes begin arriving, identify storage space!

I like Abelo poly hives because they're light, more thermally efficient than wood and ready to use straight from the box. Other poly makes have design drawbacks. Abelo is made to standard National dimensions, so compatible with wood National boxes you may pick up. If you choose wood, look at English cedar in the winter sales, rather than Western Red Cedar. English may be knotty but is better value, though accurate assembly is vital.

2 x Abelo National Ashforth hives (floor, 2 x brood, Ashforth feeder as permanent feeder & crownboard, deep roof)
8 x Abelo National poly supers
4 x BS* National poly nuc boxes (use 2 as 6-frame boxes or for swarm collection, 2 as 3-frame twins for mating spare QCs)
2 x wood-framed queen excluders
2 x split boards (make yourself) for economical vertical AS splits

60 x Maisemore 2nds DN4 frames
90 x Maisemore 2nds SN4 frames
500g Challenge 20mm gimp pins available widely; use a 4oz pein hammer

60 sheets DN wired foundation. KBS is consistently good quality
90 sheets SN unwired foundation (cheaper than wired; extract slowly in year 1)

Note:
1 * Maisemore nuc boxes are equally good, though 6 frame only; brood and super extensions etc are available & extension boxes are compatible with BS boxes
2 No dummy boards needed
3 No crownboards needed

Dadant smoker.
A decent hive tool: more difficult to find because some cheapies are good value and greater expense does not lead necessarily to better quality. Jero (a Portugese knife manufacturer) is the best in my experience but no longer available in the UK since Park Beekeeping closed, but I suggest you seek the necessity of a slim blade made of quality steel.

Long-cuff nitrile gloves allow sensitive handling and can be machine washed; Marigold last longer but the fit can be looser, which you will want to avoid.
Washing soda, lots of it. Wash your suit in it, wash your tools in it regularly.
Two buckets with lids: one for waste wax, one half full of water+half a bag of washing soda+one of these.

PS: don't buy a cheap suit unless you really have no option. These are the best.

 

[ApiarIAN]

Yes, buy over winter and prep frames in spring, avoiding the need to make them in season (my job today).

Here goes with a list of food for thought, but before the boxes begin arriving, identify storage space!
…

Thank you Eric, that really is a helpful, useful and actionable reply, much appreciated and thanks for taking the time out to provide the in depth shopping list. Cheers

 

[plain_hunt]

And this is in this scenario that one should dispatch the queen, dispatch all Qcs so they can't raise anymore from this line of bees and introduce new genetics from non swarmy bees.

In having this approach, you perpetuate the swarminess and whilst you may think 'you are wise to it' and have some kind of control, drones with these genetics are still being produced and mating with virgins, thus increasing swarminess tendencies in an area. This is even more frustrating when a neighbouring beekeeper may be raising his/her own queens and working on achieving a low swarmy strain of bees as drones from your colony(ies) will spoil this hard work.

You have used the term 'you had' so hopefully you have wised up to it and worked towards stopping this.

I did wise up. This was my first colony when I started beekeeping. Long time ago now, and was a swarm we’d been given. The next two colonies I acquired showed me what bees normally do when swarming!

 

[Mint Bee]

Thank you Eric, that really is a helpful, useful and actionable reply, much appreciated and thanks for taking the time out to provide the in depth shopping list. Cheers

only thing missing is a new shed to fit it all in and then you can really fill it up

 

[jeff33]

I did wise up. This was my first colony when I started beekeeping. Long time ago now, and was a swarm we’d been given. The next two colonies I acquired showed me what bees normally do when swarming!

Reminds me of my first nuc which swarmed after a month. Next season both halves swarmed again with one of the F3 creating some feisty bees.
It did stress me out a tad and thought surely nobody would be beekeeping if it was like that. Luckily (for me, not the bees), I didn't treat over the winter as I thought they would be fine and lost 3 colonies. Next spring, I did some research, ordered a couple of descent queens and changed the genetics of my bees.....worked quite well until friends of mine put 6-7 hives on his land 1/2 mile away from my rearing apiary. All his bees are very swarmy and whilst I have tried to steer their thinking towards changing the genetics to benefit us all, it has not worked. This year, I have had 4 of my hives headed by 2021 queens from my rearing apiary making swarm preps, even with a demaree. I may have to change the location next year and just use this apiary for production colonies.

 

[fenster]

It would be useful to find out, Fenster, how you run your hives: single brood?

Ian is planning to use one BB and two supers, shown in every catalogue and website as a regulation combo. Too many beginners believe this meagre dolls-house to be adequate, when really it's a recipe for swarming.

Better to see the hive as a flexible and expandable unit, rather like a balloon or an accordion, and to give as much space as needed, hopefully just ahead of need.

Responsive expansion may easily result in double or triple brood and two or three or more supers by May or June. An alternative is to work a Demaree (not tried that), or remove brood and add foundation regularly, but all this means more work.

What can a hobbyist do about swarming? The same as any beekeeper with five or five thousand colonies: have a plan and the kit to carry it out.

Thanks. This year single brood boxes. I had two deep brood boxes when I started with just one hive but ran into difficulties managing that configuration and split the hive into two. That was successful for last year but I have had difficulty managing this year.

 

[fenster]

Probably realised his/her approach to beekeeping is not what beekeepers should aim for....

OK, here's a reply for you. What possible benefit does a reply like yours offer to anyone? And what, I wonder is a Beekeeping Supporter? Are you doing it now?

 

[Erichalfbee]

And what, I wonder is a Beekeeping Supporter?

It means you pay your subs to help keep the forum running.
If you’re interested click on your avatar at the top of the page and look in your account upgrades. There’s an option there. It gives you a few extra privileges and considering the wealth of knowledge here at £18 is pretty good value

 

[ericbeaumont]

ran into difficulties managing that configuration

Was it the weight when shifting the top box off to check the lower?

There are several ways to manage bees in single boxes: select or buy queens that produce small nests naturally, or weaken a colony by taking out frames of sealed brood regularly and replacing with foundation, or a Demaree, or how about this: put them in one Dadant brood box (don't use that much smoke, though).

 

[jeff33]

OK, here's a reply for you. What possible benefit does a reply like yours offer to anyone? And what, I wonder is a Beekeeping Supporter? Are you doing it now?

Nothing as it wasn't intended to....and Dani has explained what a Beekeeper Supporter is.

 

[fenster]

Well ! ... what a baptism of fire .... they say you never learn anything unless you make mistakes and I'm sure you've found enough on your own without anyone on here pointing to anything you have done.

I bought a swarm catcher like this ...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/search?s=swarm+catcher
(Not this actual one - mine was a cheap one on promotion) but it's just a bag you can put on the end of a pole and you pull a cord and the opening closes once you have the bees in it. When you have bees in a bush it's sometimes a bit easier to get them into a bag than it is trying to sweep them into a box or a skep ... I made a pole out of 20mm copper tube that I can extend up to 6 metres - I have a tree lopper that will reach about 5 metres so, with a helper or three hands you can get the bag around them and just cut the branch(es) they are hanging on and pull the draw string ... you can get the majority and then tip them into your swarm collection brood box.

More kit .... I know ... it goes on and on doesn't it ?

But with your bees propensity for swarming I'd see if you can get someone handy with a needle and thread to see if they could knock an old (or new !) pillow case into something similar ... a wire coat hanger to stiffen the 'mouth' and a broom handle ... either that or watch out for one when they come up on promotion ... of course, you know, that as soon as you have one your bees will NEVER swarm again !

Was it the weight when shifting the top box off to check the lower?

There are several ways to manage bees in single boxes: select or buy queens that produce small nests naturally, or weaken a colony by taking out frames of sealed brood regularly and replacing with foundation, or a Demaree, or how about this: put them in one Dadant brood box (don't use that much smoke, though).

Thanks for these. I was able to lift the top brood box OK. I think I may have jumped the gun by adding it because there was some but not much brood in it and it was full of honey at the expense of space in the supers which were empty for the season. That's why I split the hive the following year and that worked well. I didn't re-combine having spent £x00's on a second hive and I really wanted two. I have made enough boxes over the past couple of days to implement splitting suggestions for next year and actually using them right now to recover three of the four swarms which escaped.

 

[ericbeaumont]

it was full of honey at the expense of space in the supers

Yes, takes a while to learn the knack of getting bees to use it for brood and not honey. I put at least three frames of open brood in the top BB, and a super above, so they never get the idea that space is filled.

If you bruise capped honey in the top BB they're likely to move it up; also bruise cappings at the top of combs in the bottom BB to get the bees to clear the honey, and the queen to move upstairs.

Once the double is filled I add a third BB in-between the two, putting two or three frames of open brood in this to bridge the gap and get nurse bees in there.

By mid-summer the top BB may well be full of honey and can be extracted, but the main purpose - to give plenty of laying space before need - is acheived and swarm preps much reduced. Of the triples, I had to do vertical splits on about four, and that's because I was late with space, the greatest of sins.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

2 No dummy boards needed

I don't know why I didn't think of this before. You can fit 12 new frames in a box but in time the space gets used up with just 11 frames. It seems a waste of space to try and fit in a dummy board too. (Or is it a 'division board'?) So, having bought or made loads of them, I'm now going to sell them.
I see there was a discussion of this in January. Can't keep up.

 

[ericbeaumont]

fit 12 new frames in a box but in time the space gets used up with just 11 frames

Depends on the box. Some take 11 or 12 with too much spare end space, some just right, some are too tight.

The Abelo 11-frame box is brilliant because it gives 5mm at either end, which is just enough to compress and allow the first frame out without rolling bees.

Mind you, when closing up the frames must be compressed again really hard and the gap then equalised at either end. Surprising how much space can be gained if this is done, but if not, you'll struggle to get 11 in the box, never mind gaining wriggle room.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Depends on the box. Some take 11 or 12 with too much spare end space, some just right, some are too tight.

The Abelo 11-frame box is brilliant because it gives 5mm at either end, which is just enough to compress and allow the first frame out without rolling bees.

Mind you, when closing up the frames must be compressed again really hard and the gap then equalised at either end. Surprising how much space can be gained if this is done, but if not, you'll struggle to get 11 in the box, never mind gaining wriggle room.

Right. I hadn't realised the Abelo was smaller inside. I'm happy spacing out my 11 frames in a wooden box now without a dummy board.

 

[drex]

I don't know why I didn't think of this before. You can fit 12 new frames in a box but in time the space gets used up with just 11 frames. It seems a waste of space to try and fit in a dummy board too. (Or is it a 'division board'?) So, having bought or made loads of them, I'm now going to sell them.
I see there was a discussion of this in January. Can't keep up.

A division board fits tight against sides etc of box, hence divides it. A dummy board is same size as a frame. Dummies make inspections easier. I have many of different widths , for example, to pack out nucleus colonies etc. Not a good idea to leave space between combs as they may build brace comb ( depending on type of frame and actual spacing) .
I would not be without dummies

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would not be without dummies

have a stack of dummy boards made from offcuts of 8 and 10mm ply/OSB saves a lot of time, and hassle getting the first frame out - if you just left the gap there, you would soon get it filled with brace comb.
Only a dummy would think they were a nuisance of any kind

 

[ericbeaumont]

spacing out my 11 frames in a wooden box

Not sure what you mean: using Hoffman's, or eye?

Decision to include a board depends on the box you use: the internal layout of a wood box was decided donkey's years ago when prevailing wisdom dictated a dummy board essential, and to make life more interesting, in the intervening aeons manufacturers will have used wood of different thickness, and so tweaked interior dimensions.

One truth in beekeeping is that standardisation of equipment saves time and energy, and so working with a mixture of wooden boxes that take 11 or 12 with or without a dummy board is not ideal. Problem is that most of us work with a mixture of wooden boxes acquired piecemeal - I have some boxes (retired) which must be 80 years old - and so dummy boards may be necessary in some boxes and not in others.

To save the making, the material, transport, cleaning and storing of dummy boards I prefer the Abelo box, which replicates the National wood spec. in all respects bar the need for a board.

Last Sunday in a training apiary we showed beginners the variations and they agreed that dummy boards in Abelo boxes were pointless, so out they came and in went frame number 11. Had the beginners gone into a wood box, the decision would likely have been different.

I'm happy spacing out my 11 frames in a wooden box now without a dummy board.

Do you mean to space Hoffman frames by eye to fill the box without a board? That would lead you down the road to chaos, because bees would fatten the combs to reduce the gaps and you would lose the freedom of frame management - moving frames to any other place in the same box. Only flat combs made by tight Hoffmans give that option.

Not a good idea to leave space between combs as they may build brace comb

Yes, it's surprising how many beekeepers pay for Hoffman frames and then don't use them, leaving gaps between Hoffmans at the end of a check. By the next visit the combs will be fatter, perhaps brace comb will appear between top bars and propolis between Hoffmans.

Lever frames tight together: if the resulting endspace demands a dummy board, so be it.