Invert Sugar

[hiveabee]

sugars are very complicated; for instance, in brewing beer or wine if sucrose is used in the fermentation process the yeast has to convert it to dextrose before it can proceed to turn it into Alcohol. But if you was to use glucose instead of sucrose the yeast would be able to proceed without all the fuss. So could feeding bees pure glucose be far better than feeding cane sugar( sucrose) surely this would save the bee converting it to what it needs. Like I say sugars are very complicated.

 

[Finman]

Like I say sugars are very complicated.

I think that beekeeprs are more complicated.

Beekeepers feed dry milk to the bees, even if bees cannot use it. 50% of shimmed milk is lactose.

Thde same persons are that opinion that normal sugar is not good to bees. Even cane sugar is poinosnous, or was beet sugar?

In natural honey prouction you must use brown sugar. You cannot nurse bees in plastic hives but you may sell honey in plastic jars and tubes.

Then whe talk about cornsyrup where starch has been splitted to sugars. That is too much to the beekeeper.

REED MORE! BELIEVE LESS!

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sit...tion__how_the_krebs_cycle_works__quiz_1_.html

 

[Finman]

My point exactly. Thank you.

It makes a big difference: there are not 600,000 people in the UK walking around with schizophrenia at any one time. It's more like 120,000.

Dusty.

I wonder from where you draw your own figures.

It depends how the disease appears in each persons and what kind of medication he gets.
Good medication is 1000 euros in one month. In Marocco for example they do not even sell modern medicines in the country because hey have not money.
In India they are so called "holy men" on streets.

 

[Poly Hive]

A point that has not been mentioned and this is anecdotal, is that a friend of mine tells me that there is no robbing when feeding inverted sugars.

He runs a commercial outfit so should know what he is talking about.

Can you verify this Murray?

PH

 

[crazy_bull]

A point that has not been mentioned and this is anecdotal, is that a friend of mine tells me that there is no robbing when feeding inverted sugars.

He runs a commercial outfit so should know what he is talking about.

Can you verify this Murray?

PH

I would say that was correct, it doesn't seem to give off a scent that the bee's recognise as food, for example when i used to mix white sugar and water, any spillages were immediatley a bee and wasp fest! With the stuff i get from germany quite the opposite often the spillage is fine left as is, i do try however to avoid spillages and generally have a tub of water to wash any spillages up just as a precaution against attracting wasps.

C B

 

[For want of a better word]

I use it to feed my bees as its as close to honey you can get without being honey.

I just made my own fondant with a inverted sugar mix. I intened to make my own for spring/nuc build up and for winter feeding also


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inverted or invert[1] sugar syrup is a mixture of glucose and fructose; it is obtained by splitting sucrose into these two components. Compared with its precursor, sucrose, inverted sugar is sweeter and its products tend to remain more moist and are less prone to crystallisation. Inverted sugar is therefore valued by bakers, who refer to the syrup as trimoline or invert syrup.[2]

In technical terms, sucrose is a disaccharide, which means that it is a molecule derived from two simple sugars (monosaccharides). In the case of sucrose, these monosaccharide building blocks are fructose and glucose. The splitting of sucrose is a hydrolysis reaction. The hydrolysis can be induced simply by heating an aqueous solution of sucrose, but more commonly, catalysts are added to accelerate the conversion. The biological catalysts that are added are called sucrases (in animals) and invertases (in plants). Sucrases and invertases are types of glycoside hydrolase enzymes. Acid, such as occurs in lemon juice or cream of tartar, also accelerates the conversion of sucrose to invert.


Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding roughly one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 millilitres per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes, and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.

All inverted sugar syrups are created from hydrolysing sucrose to glucose (dextrose) and fructose by heating a sucrose solution, then relying on time alone, with the catalytic properties of an acid or enzymes used to speed the reaction. Commercially prepared acid catalysed solutions are neutralised when the desired level of inversion is reached.

All constituent sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose) support fermentation, so invert sugar solutions may be fermented as readily as sucrose solutions

I have had the question asked twice today from new beekeeperes.. what is so "special" about Ambrosia?... 2 new forumees... here's the answer!

 

[Finman]

.
I repeat: inverting gives no advantage in bee nutrition
it is real humbug. No nutrition research speak about inverted sugar.


i have nursed bees 50 years. I have used only normal sugar for winter.
Amount of honey in winter food is less that 20%.

My bees live with sugar from September to May. It is 9 months.
No inverting is not needed

i heard about inverting allready 50 y ago. i have not met a beekeper who even
try to invert sugar. It is really vain job.

.before the canesugar goes into blood circulation, bees gut splits cane sugar to fructose and glucose.
If a bee eates starch, amylase enzyme splits it to glucose. So hapens in human gut too.

 

[farbee]

Hi Winker,

please post your snow white and the seven dwarfs again but with an extra line about i studies biochemistry, biology at University line.

Best laugh I have hadf in ages.

 

[psafloyd]

I've heard and read that invert sugar is difficult to prepare.

When I tried, I inverted the sugar and it all came out of the top of the bag.

Made a hell of a mess.

 

[keith pierce]

My colony numbers have crept up and am now heading into the winter with about 100 colonies including nucs. I have got to the stage where i am sick of going to the local supplier and loading the sugar into the back of the van. Then i have to off load it out of the van into a wheelbarrow and down to my shed. Then i have to mix it and mix and mix it again and then decant it into 25 litre containers and back up the side passage and into the van.Back down to the apairy and off load it again.All of this is done on my own.
I hit the wall this year and ordered a pallet of ambrosia invert. It arrived to me last week and am just using up the last of my suger before i start on the invert.I got a 700 litre tank and it cost me €1200, including a €100 delivery charge. I will have to shop around for a better price, but i am not going back to mixing sugar again.

 

[Finman]

.
We have here service. We get 67% syrup to tank. Price is douple compared to flour sugar.
. I use 600 kg a year.

 

[Andy Duff]

pro beekeeping like the rest of agriculture is a production industry.

UK economy doesn't like production.

GDP it seems depends upon predominantly consumption (of either cheap imported cr*p OR overpriced imported cr*p) or supposed service "industries".

Uk service to consumers - non existent unless we employ foreigners.
UK financial service industry - served us all so well by fuelling the practices that caused the crash.

and of course we don't have EU and government subsidies.

I would agree but you have fogotten to include;
TOO many levels of "management" that spends it's time having pointless meetings to justify it's existance.
A financial system that is beyond repair (see Japan)
UK governments that refuse to stand up to the EU
Apathetic voters who are more interested in celebrity big brother dancing on stars or looking at pictures of a royal ginger scrote, I already know what a right royal ginger scrote looks like, I HAVE seen Anthony Warr** Thomps*n

 

[farbee]

Making invert syrup look real easy.

Add citric acid or cream of tartar to syrup and heat. Would be even cheaper to use enzyme.

Thinking of giving that a go as I only have a few colonies so cannot buy in bulk. Not sure where but somebody is making a killing here.

Also thinking of going into production. How cheap would per Kg would suger be by the pallet load. Converting it to invert syrup would be real easy.

 

[itma]

Making invert syrup look real easy.

Add citric acid or cream of tartar to syrup and heat. Would be even cheaper to use enzyme.

Thinking of giving that a go as I only have a few colonies so cannot buy in bulk. Not sure where but somebody is making a killing here.

Also thinking of going into production. How cheap would per Kg would suger be by the pallet load. Converting it to invert syrup would be real easy.

The acid route is deprecated for beekeeping because of the potential for HMF formation.
Enzymatic inversion for syrup needs a controlled endpoint - done with heat I believe. The enzyme isn't cheap, but is available through suppliers to the confectionary trade - its how many "liquid centre" chocolates are made (inversion in situ after forming).

Regarding commercial invert syrups for beekeepers, one aspect that I believe is 'designed-in' is that the proportions of glucose and fructose are not equal, and are in a deliberate proportion -- it is 'balanced', to assist both stability in storage and presumably bee nutrition.

There are prior posts by Into The Lions Den, (who seems to buy it by the tankerload), comparing brands and describing visits to manufacturers - some of whom manufacture under contract for 'rival' brands, though not necessarily to an identical specification!



My understanding is that different honeys (eg OSR and Acacia) 'set' differently because of differences in the amounts of glucose and fructose in their composition.
And that such differences are because of differences in the invert sugar makeup of the nectar, rather than differences in the bees' processing of a supposedly similar raw material.

Undoubtedly, the bees do do some enzymatic inversion, but I don't believe that is the whole story.



I seem to have picked up somewhere the belief that invert syrup is more readily (quickly) stored by the bees - requiring less 'processing' by them.
And thus that it is a material that can be fed starting slightly later in the season, with an obvious bee-productivity (therefore commercial) advantage.
This season-extension, plus the convenience factor, is what I gather accounts for its popularity among honey farmers.

If you take off extra honey to sell at plural £ per lb, then 50p (or so) per lb for the syrup would seem very worthwhile. You wouldn't have to get much extra honey to pay for the extra cost of invert syrup over plain sugar.

 

[farbee]

I know about HMF but not much heat would be required and most people use hot water. This is used to make glucose fructose mix for baking so cannot be too toxic. Levels of HMF can be calculated with absorbance.

Does anybody know how it is done industrally at the moment?

I can get hold of the enzyme and it cheap as not much is needed. It is easy chemistry. Easy to control process to ensure conversion with polarimeter.

 

[Finman]

Making invert syrup look real easy.

don't you realize that is is absolutely unnecessary.

Ihave not ever a beekeeper who do that.
When I have read official nutrition reports, no one mention thta
Can't you red clear facts?

What is the matter with your guys!

stupid ideas spread in this forum like bush fire on Canarian Isles!

 

[farbee]

I believe is 'designed-in' is that the proportions of glucose and fructose are not equal

I am afraid you believe wrongly. It is simply not possible as sucrose which is in sugar is a disaccaride of glucose and fructose so when it is broken down by hydrolysis it must give a 50:50 mix of each. So it cannot be built in

 

[farbee]

I think ITLD said it gives better overwintering.
Surely tht is not a stupid thing to have. Obviuosly not essential but may be an improvement.

ITLD opinion in my eyes trumps yours as he manages a couple of thousand hives.

 

[Finman]

The acid route is deprecated for beekeeping because of the potential for HMF formation.


Undoubtedly, the bees do do some enzymatic inversion, but I don't believe that is the whole story.

I seem to have picked up somewhere the belief that invert syrup is more readily (quickly) stored by the bees - requiring less 'processing' by them.

what is your real knowledge about the issue? What d you know about biochemistry and glycolysis?

Undoubtly bees invert 100% out of sacharose when they eate it.

Bees cap the syrup when it is dry enough and when you feed the cells full.

 

[Finman]

I think ITLD said it gives better overwintering.
Surely tht is not a stupid thing to have.

based on what?

.