Invert Sugar

[Into the lions den]

720g..................of solids that is.............even dry sugar itself is not 100% solids as it cannot crystallise in the absence of water.

The guys syrup, at 70p per kg contains sugar valued at 61.9p by the supermarket price of 84p a kilo seen this weekend past. Still think its expensive given that there is no work and no waste and it is biologically inert due to the 72% solids and can sit in the feeder all winter until the bees need it. Like all sugars though, it is hygroscopic, and once the solids drops below 63% it will ferment just like any other syrup.

 

[mbc]

Thanks.
Seems like a good deal, but as Finman pointed out any saving is soon lost in transport costs unless you can get it delivered.

 

[For want of a better word]

what is the inference of adding Thymol to the Apisuc / invert sugar?
not necessary as an anti fungal in the solution ( as not needed as presumably will not ferment), but as an anti nosema in the hive ?

Most humbly requested ....... as my previous kicking for daring to post anything possibly controversial has left me limping!

 

[Winker]

what is the inference of adding Thymol to the Apisuc / invert sugar?
not necessary as an anti fungal in the solution ( as not needed as presumably will not ferment), but as an anti nosema in the hive ?

Most humbly requested ....... as my previous kicking for daring to post anything possibly controversial has left me limping!

I intened on mixing thymol into mine next year as anti nosema mesure

 

[Finman]

720g..................of solids that is.............even dry sugar itself is n

biologically inert due to the 72% solids and can sit in the feeder all winter until the bees need it.


Like all sugars though, it is hygroscopic, and once the solids drops below 63% it will ferment just like any other syrup.

i do not understand from where idea comes annd to where it goes......

When I feed - mostly too late- one box hives fill itself in two days.

2 box hive fills the hive in one week. I give them time to organize winter food before I give final dosage 8 litre syrup.

Then I take feeding box off that hive is warm. It takes often 2 weeks that bees cap the food.

- but idea is to keep feeder upp to winter?
- ofcourse syrup will ferment in open box because it gives condensation moisture from hive. It will be diluted and start moulding and fermenting.

But I have not those problems because I keep the feeder on only one week.
I do not feed them before April when September feeding is ready.
.

Yes, feeding schedule is very diffrent with 1000 hive owner and with 10 hive owner.
10 hiver owner can feed his hives in two weekends. 20 hive owner does not need adwices.

.

 

[Into the lions den]

- but idea is to keep feeder upp to winter?
- ofcourse syrup will ferment in open box because it gives condensation moisture from hive. It will be diluted and start moulding and fermenting.

OK, so maybe we do not follow the scheme here.....

The feeder for the wooden hives is made to my own design, moulded in polystyrene, nice and thick, to serve as the winter insulation as well as the feeder. I have one for every hive so no double labour going back to collect empty feeders. The feeders for the Langstroth hives in both wood and poly are 'off the shelf' from other makers. Again we have one for every hive or nearly so.

By far the majority of the colonies take down all their syrup. If they do not for whatever reason the bees are nice and warm under the thick based feeder, and come up on any warm day in winter (and here we do get them) and take a little more away.

In most of the feeders the barrier piece is solid perspex, and does not allow the condensation from the hive to enter the feed compartment, so no dilution and no fermentation. Its just something you need to guard against if for some reason water from whatever source gets into the feed. Like I said, most are empty anyway.

It is however quite noticeable that those left with a little unused syrup over winter take it quite quickly in spring, and often overtake those fed on a more conventional schedule.

A colony which does not take much syrup at all is a problem colony and is almost certainly not going to overwinter. Its unused feed just gets passed over to an adjacent hive in spring, still in perfect condition.

 

[BBG]

BBG:- I will introduce you to the selling agent for the UK, at least for Apisuc. You can negotiate your own price and get it delivered diect from the factory with no middle men involved.

Whoever quoted you a price higher than Ambrosia for Apisuc bears close scrutiny. It leaves the factory at about £150 a tonne LESS, and does not have to pass through the danish selling agents hands first with their margin added, their one of their UK agents, then finall maybe a beekeeper/stockist as well. Those who bought bulk Apisuc were simply introduced by me direct to their UK agency (almost a direct employee working on a vanishingly small commission of 3% or less), so if their prices are higher than Ambrosia something is afoot.

PM me for direct introduction. They will send over anything in multiples of pallet loads, or tanker bulk...........they have Apisuc, InvertBee, both invert liquid feeds and supplied in various pack sizes up to IBC, Fondabee in big blocks or pre portioned packs, and a few other products too.

Associations or individuals grouping together should be able to get this stuff economically. Have beekeepers in here today collecting Apisuc from me. Their own buckets, 70p a kilo.

It's worth keeping this in the open so:

Apologies, just checked back on last year's notes and found the quote was more expensive than Api-invert not Ambrosia - BUT that was without delivery in the price, which would have taken it over the price of delivered Ambrosia.

 

[Into the lions den]

It's worth keeping this in the open so:

Apologies, just checked back on last year's notes and found the quote was more expensive than Api-invert not Ambrosia - BUT that was without delivery in the price, which would have taken it over the price of delivered Ambrosia.

If you were asked that kind of money for these products then someone was, as you said privately, not wanting your business anyway, and if you still bought they would make a killing..........

Next time I talk with the makers I will raise this issue. Maybe it is time for them to place a stock of IBCs and some pallets of buckets, and maybe some fondant too, at a UK depot.

 

[Black Comb]

I recently contacted Apisuc re. Buying a pallet. I was referred to uk distributors who referred me to someone else. The delivered price per kg is a only a few pence cheaper than I can buy Ambrosia for in single buckets from the club.

 

[Skyhook]

I use it to feed my bees as its as close to honey you can get without being honey.

Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding roughly one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 millilitres per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes, and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.

I've heard bad things about this- that boiling alone can increase the HMF levels, and that citric acid or cream of tartar can make it worse. My understanding is that professional producers use invertase. If you can't do this then sucrose, even if it is sub-optimal, is at least harmless, which may not be the case for home-produced invert syrup.

.

 

[Finman]

.
So far add sugar to water.....

Now boil syrup 20 minutes......id****s! Syrup will turn little bit yellow..more or less

i need 1000 kg syrup in Autumn. Boil it 20 minutes! How much I need firewood?

 

[Into the lions den]

I recently contacted Apisuc re. Buying a pallet. I was referred to uk distributors who referred me to someone else. The delivered price per kg is a only a few pence cheaper than I can buy Ambrosia for in single buckets from the club.

Leave this with me for a bit. I am working on something. That situation just should not be.

 

[Winker]

.
So far add sugar to water.....

Now boil syrup 20 minutes......id****s! Syrup will turn little bit yellow..more or less

i need 1000 kg syrup in Autumn. Boil it 20 minutes! How much I need firewood?

for get the boil for 20 minutes, just add 10ml of Lemon juice per Kilo of Sugar and bring the temp up to 114C, let it cool down. Bobs your uncle, inverted Sugar syrup!

for 1000Kg of sugar i sugest you by a few lemons, it works out at 10Ltr of lemon juice you need

 

[Teemore]

Murray,

I was just chatting to the local chap I was working with to bring over a quantity of apisuc and he confirmed that the initial price we were offered was more or less on a par with ambrosia.
We were referred to the UK wholesaler by the Belgian parent company. The agent was only prepared to ship it to a Northern Ireland wholesaler who no doubt would have to get a cut. Hopefully when the UK agent gets back to us again he will be talking sense.

We would even be prepared to consider arranging for our own carrier to collect in GB if the sums work out.

 

[Finman]

for get the boil for 20 minutes, just add 10ml of Lemon juice per Kilo of Sugar and bring the temp up to 114C, let it cool down. Bobs your uncle, inverted Sugar syrup!

for 1000Kg of sugar i sugest you by a few lemons, it works out at 10Ltr of lemon juice you need

where I get a pressure boiler? Ok. 15 km away there a pulp factory which stopped just now.
i will make lemon invert there. I need only a key.

 

[Dishmop]

pro beekeeping like the rest of agriculture is a production industry.

UK economy doesn't like production.

GDP it seems depends upon predominantly consumption (of either cheap imported cr*p OR overpriced imported cr*p) or supposed service "industries".

Uk service to consumers - non existent unless we employ foreigners.
UK financial service industry - served us all so well by fuelling the practices that caused the crash.

and of course we don't have EU and government subsidies.

Who pays the farmers to keep their hedges nice and pretty then?

 

[Finman]

.
UK sells services to the half of the world and buy products from lower cost countries.

60 years ago in UK over 50% out of labor force was in industrial production. Is it now 5% as in farming.

We had in farming work over 50% in those days.

Every body wants to drive tractor....do they...tractor is quite expencive...

 

[BBG]

Who pays the farmers to keep their hedges nice and pretty then?

"and of course we don't have EU and government subsidies."

Search for one near you:

Here's a big concern we all know that has dozens of subsidiaries all getting some dosh from the British Tax payer.

These exist for no other reason than no government has had the grit to get rid of farm subsidies that were only brought in as a temporary measure after WW2 to set the country back on its feet.

Even the Royal Farms are helped:

http://farmsubsidy.org/search/windsor/

The site is often extraordinarily slow, not suggesting that is being done deliberately to keep information that should be in the public domain, from disseminating. Of course.

-- -- --
By this:

"to keep their hedges nice and pretty then?"

I take it you mean devoid of flora and fauna, like the fields that were once a pleasure to see and smell with sainfoin, meadow flowers that made hay only in the memories of the elderly; cowslips, etc, etc growing - all the delights the bees used to stuff the supers full from.

Farmsubsidy are doing their best to keep things transparent

Look here, third up from the bottom, impoverished landowners.

End of info.

Bit long but worth being genned up on where the dosh goes. Shirley?

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Winkler,
You've given two methods of boiling up syrup. It may be a pleasant passtime for you for 5 hives but it isn't viable if, like Finman, you need 1000kg of the stuff and expensive in heat if it isn't required. Finman is not a hobby beekeeper.

Incidentally, now you've given us two methods, which one do you use and have you measured HMF as a result of boiling?

For me, sugar syrup goes into the hive. Bees survive.
AND to please Nic, the sugar doesn't come from Tescos.

 

[user 6228]

There is a semi bulk method you might like to try to desolving solids in water. Mind you I've only done this in 200L lots. I use this method to disolve inorganic fertiliser in water (yes I know I should add organic matter, Im doing that as well by the V large tipper truck or 200 barrow load ,soil isnt made over night!)

Take a 200L orange juice container 1/2 fill with water add a medium sized submersible pump (1" to 2" outlet) that has an iron bar welded to the outlet so that it be held rigidly at the bottom

Turn on pump, when you have a vortex going add the solids.