Interesting little article that popped up on my phone..

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hemo 

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One can now add reduced entrances to reduce EFB to their mantra as well :rolleyes:.
They must be getting bored with rubbish to give to the membership to read, problem is a lot of the BBKA lovies who run the LBKA's will reiterate the BS.
 

Antipodes 

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Bees do more than cope in wooden hives and certainly in our conditions. Not only do they cope they provide the beekeepers with a surplus of honey and bees, even many bbka members and that’s as good definition of thriving as can be. Couldn’t resist that! Obviously we can make their lives easier with modern materials. But then it’s a cost/return question and far from natural as some would consider. I never questioned any results DM came up with regarding the thermal side/efficiency, just some assumptions he made along the way. Ian
Good commercial beekeepers here (in Tas) have no trouble getting bees to thrive in wooden hives as well. Apparently they can average 150kg per hive in a couple of months. Excellent queens and beekeeper management to get big strong colonies. Some send the surplus bees from the wooden hives overseas.
 

victor meldrew 

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Not as long as you but Mark has written why it was set up
It was set up as an alternative to the BBKA forum 1 was ousted as a moderator on there by RP.. who claimed authority and ordered the then mods to run anything we wished to do including our posts even , past him first !
rhat chapter is closed for me !
What Marks creation has morphed into disturbs me .
Anything from one legged unicyclists to regular hate sessions AKA Orwell !
Very very few of the old members post now . Sick of the arena it’s become .
 

victor meldrew 

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Hatred? Oh please! I have to be a member as my association deems it necessary but when push comes to shove there's a helluvalot of things they should (in my opinion) do such as resist the introduction of the legal requirements to use additive laced Oxalic acid with a brand name instead of the 99% pure material we used to good effect for years without incident. Then we had the fiasco and public laundering of the Basterfield conflict and a magazine which until recently stated the organisation opposed importation but gleefully accepted advertising for imported stocks. Let's not even open the can of worms about ventilation/matchsticks which is trotted out with monotonous regularity in said magazine.
Generally I ignore most of this and I would not claim everything is wrong but in terms of marking an essay "there is much room for improvement"
Your mileage may vary so I suggest we agree to disagree. If my contributions upset you there is an ignore facility.
You could be an individual member and forego subscribing to the magazine without breaking any club rules ?
This way you wouldn’t have to read what’shmattersons page but still enjoy the benefits on offer . The third party insurance for one !
The advertising was already printed and the offending companies ads haven’t been repeated !
 

Erichalfbee 

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It was set up as an alternative to the BBKA forum 1 was ousted as a moderator on there by RP.. who claimed authority and ordered the then mods to run anything we wished to do including our posts even , past him first !
rhat chapter is closed for me !
What Marks creation has morphed into disturbs me .
Anything from one legged unicyclists to regular hate sessions AKA Orwell !
Very very few of the old members post now . Sick of the arena it’s become .
The answer to that, John, is to post more often yourself and rather than rail against others post something useful for the beginners. I can’t for the life of me understand why posts have to be prefaced with an attack on somebody else’s opinion. What’s wrong with simply adding your own.
Mind you the BBKA has a lot to answer for 😉
 

victor meldrew 

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The answer to that, John, is to post more often yourself and rather than rail against others post something useful for the beginners. I can’t for the life of me understand why posts have to be prefaced with an attack on somebody else’s opinion. What’s wrong with simply adding your own.
Mind you the BBKA has a lot to answer for 😉
Your parting shot ( tongue in cheek or no ) qualifies all I have written on the subject. 😉
 

elainemary 

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I guess those matchsticks are a bad idea. 😉
Thanks I’m trying polyhives in one apiary this year. I once bought a colony in a Paradise hive so have stuck with that one but suspect there are better out there now. I love my WBCs in my home and one other apiary, bees over winter well but just too much work to have in all out apiaries. Only thing I don’t like about polyhives so far, is it seems much easier to squash bees on the runners where the frames sit, compared to my WBCs. Also I hate the thin plastic excluders with no rim. Struggled lifting a super off this week, the bees had glued it all between the super and brood box. The wooden ones with the rim are much better. The polyboxes don’t click together with the rimmed excluder. Will persevere.
 

Gilberdyke John 

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You could be an individual member and forego subscribing to the magazine without breaking any club rules ?
This way you wouldn’t have to read what’shmattersons page but still enjoy the benefits on offer . The third party insurance for one !
The advertising was already printed and the offending companies ads haven’t been repeated !
Why would I wish to subscribe to the bbka as an individual member? Ít's already included in my local association package.
I like my local association and apart from the magazine dropping through my letterbox and seemingly calendar driven emails about starvation warnings plus a stream of survey requests and notification of training options from regional and national level I don't get anything from above local association level which I place much value on. The magazine is a source of advertising and hence has some value but too much of the article content is (will that change to was?) purely wooly thinking opinion from individuals, not all logical or sensible. I put that down to failure to sift the contributions by the editorial team although I suppose that's indicative of a lack of submitted material. I know the advertising policy has been "recently" changed but the regular acceptance of advertising copy from suppliers of imported stock went on for years.
My local association began my foray into the world of beekeeping and I had/still have access to some highly skilled beekeepers for discussion regarding any problems I encounter which are outside my own still developing abilities (learning is a continuous process) and which cannot be researched in thebeekeepingforum either by using the search function of asking here if nothing to be found. I take my turn in delivering training to new recruits as my way of thanking my association for what they did for me.
I tried the bbka forum a few years ago but I eventually gave up because of the nursery school level of discussion which prevailed at that time. Maybe it's improved - I don't know. I do recall seeing Emyr in there for a while but his candid views didn't fit their narrative. That's another story which he may or may not wish to expand upon.🤔
If I purely needed third party insurance I have my farm insurance.
As I said previously there is much room for improvement and we can agree to disagree.
 

victor meldrew 

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Why would I wish to subscribe to the bbka as an individual member? Ít's already included in my local association package.
I like my local association and apart from the magazine dropping through my letterbox and seemingly calendar driven emails about starvation warnings plus a stream of survey requests and notification of training options from regional and national level I don't get anything from above local association level which I place much value on. The magazine is a source of advertising and hence has some value but too much of the article content is (will that change to was?) purely wooly thinking opinion from individuals, not all logical or sensible. I put that down to failure to sift the contributions by the editorial team although I suppose that's indicative of a lack of submitted material. I know the advertising policy has been "recently" changed but the regular acceptance of advertising copy from suppliers of imported stock went on for years.
My local association began my foray into the world of beekeeping and I had/still have access to some highly skilled beekeepers for discussion regarding any problems I encounter which are outside my own still developing abilities (learning is a continuous process) and which cannot be researched in thebeekeepingforum either by using the search function of asking here if nothing to be found. I take my turn in delivering training to new recruits as my way of thanking my association for what they did for me.
I tried the bbka forum a few years ago but I eventually gave up because of the nursery school level of discussion which prevailed at that time. Maybe it's improved - I don't know. I do recall seeing Emyr in there for a while but his candid views didn't fit their narrative. That's another story which he may or may not wish to expand upon.🤔
If I purely needed third party insurance I have my farm insurance.
As I said previously there is much room for improvement and we can agree to disagree.
The BBKA was reconstituted within a year of it’s inception back in the 1800s .
it’s been around for centuries.
it’s bound to have morphed and remorphed over the long years .
your branch subscription varies dependent on the type of membership you choose .
 

Ian123 

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Thanks I’m trying polyhives in one apiary this year. I once bought a colony in a Paradise hive so have stuck with that one but suspect there are better out there now. I love my WBCs in my home and one other apiary, bees over winter well but just too much work to have in all out apiaries. Only thing I don’t like about polyhives so far, is it seems much easier to squash bees on the runners where the frames sit, compared to my WBCs. Also I hate the thin plastic excluders with no rim. Struggled lifting a super off this week, the bees had glued it all between the super and brood box. The wooden ones with the rim are much better. The polyboxes don’t click together with the rimmed excluder. Will persevere.
Many polys have the same footprint as wooden hives, so why not just use your normal framed excluders. That’s what I do as I also dislike the plastic ones. Ian
 

Little_bees 

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Bees in wooden hives thrive. They should be sound water tight/resistant and far more protected from predators than other circumstances. All this work is telling us is wooden boxes leak heat nothing more.
Indeed. The journalist also omitted to mention that the quoted study compared poly boxes with lightweight pine boxes with 9mm roofs.

She also forgot to mention that the study acknowledged that 50% of heat loss was through the roof.

As most of the beeks on here who use wooden boxes also put 50mm kingspan over the crown board, the thermal differences are greatly reduced.
 

robmort 

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Thanks I’m trying polyhives in one apiary this year. I once bought a colony in a Paradise hive so have stuck with that one but suspect there are better out there now. I love my WBCs in my home and one other apiary, bees over winter well but just too much work to have in all out apiaries. Only thing I don’t like about polyhives so far, is it seems much easier to squash bees on the runners where the frames sit, compared to my WBCs. Also I hate the thin plastic excluders with no rim. Struggled lifting a super off this week, the bees had glued it all between the super and brood box. The wooden ones with the rim are much better. The polyboxes don’t click together with the rimmed excluder. Will persevere.
I mix National wooden and poly hive components: BBs, supers, QX's (plastic, rimmed metal) as needed and don't have any problem as the internal dimensions are the same. But mine all have flat tops and bottoms.
 

Pembroke 

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Bees do more than cope in wooden hives and certainly in our conditions. Not only do they cope they provide the beekeepers with a surplus of honey and bees, even many bbka members and that’s as good definition of thriving as can be. Couldn’t resist that! Obviously we can make their lives easier with modern materials. But then it’s a cost/return question and far from natural as some would consider. I never questioned any results DM came up with regarding the thermal side/efficiency, just some assumptions he made along the way. Ian
Ah, but if you aid the bees in heating the hive by insulating it then it stands to reason they will use less honey for that purpose with the result you end up with more surplus.

The other thing I heard at a talk on insulating hives (with a Kingspan jacket, which drops over the brood box ) was that as with all creatures when hatching eggs the process needs a humid atmosphere. Increasing the temperature in the hive enables the air to become more saturated so making the egg hatching process easier. This also lessens condensation as the warmer air will hold more moisture so it doesn't condense out on the inside walls of the hive.
 

elainemary 

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Many polys have the same footprint as wooden hives, so why not just use your normal framed excluders. That’s what I do as I also dislike the plastic ones. Ian
Thanks. Yes think I will and use a hive strap so secure
 

Ian123 

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Ah, but if you aid the bees in heating the hive by insulating it then it stands to reason they will use less honey for that purpose with the result you end up with more surplus.
I refer you to my earlier post in the thread. I’ve got a good number of polys! None are arguing that there are benefits to poly. The point however is bees will thrive in wooden hives
 

Sayle 

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Indeed. The journalist also omitted to mention that the quoted study compared poly boxes with lightweight pine boxes with 9mm roofs.

She also forgot to mention that the study acknowledged that 50% of heat loss was through the roof.

As most of the beeks on here who use wooden boxes also put 50mm kingspan over the crown board, the thermal differences are greatly reduced.
It's a good rule of thumb that you should have 3-4x more insulation in the roof than in the walls - that's the point of equilibrium where you start losing as much heat out the walls as you do out the roof. So if you have 20mm of wood in the walls (see wooden hives from Thornes) you want to have 100mm of wood over the crownboard.

Or, you know, 12(!!)mm of PIR foam/Celotex instead. :cautious: Really just goes to show how worthless that 20mm of wood in the walls really is when it comes to slowing heat escaping the hive when most people will plug in a standard 50mm slab in the roof.

Reading the article itself, the comment about “yawning divide between the science and the practice of beekeeping.” really does hit too close to home. The sad reality is that many people who look on the internet for advice on how to do things are willing to adopt new practices, but not adjust the ones they already have! Poor Derek spent years lining up to give talks and give advice only to get repeatedly smashed in the face with a brick by beeks who think phrases like "damp kills bees, not cold" were handed down from on high by Almighty God and consider alternatives driven by actual evidence to be heresy.

Of course even that is selective. We owe a debt to Seeley for his insights, but god-forbid we actually give bees the 15cm2 entrances they like that he demonstrated in his research - I mentioned it offhand to a fellow beek and they dismissed it with a 'well that will traffic-jam the entrance in summer'. Jesus wept. The reality is that there is a Beekeeping Orthodoxy, and the BBKA really doesn't help when they talk about the flippin' matchsticks! It's an endless game of telephone down from the fathers of apiculture, and the problem is the people down the line are just parroting the words without understanding what they mean or why they might be (or are) wrong.
 
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Erichalfbee 

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We owe a debt to Seeley for his insights, but god-forbid we actually give bees the 15cm2 entrances they like that he demonstrated in his research - I mentioned it offhand to a fellow beek and they dismissed it with a 'well that will traffic-jam the entrance in summer'.
My “wild” bees in a box in a tree at the bottom of the garden have an entrance the size of a wine cork. They manage perfectly well.
 

Antipodes 

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My “wild” bees in a box in a tree at the bottom of the garden have an entrance the size of a wine cork. They manage perfectly well.
Did Seeley say 15cm square or 12 cm square? I've noticed that If you get a big colony, say like is generated by a powerful Italian queen, the bees will sometimes eat the wood away from a 12/15cm sq. entrance,
presumably to open it up. I guess they could just be bored! I like what they hove done here for instance.
View attachment VID_20210331_132751825.mp4
 

victor meldrew 

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p
Did Seeley say 15cm square or 12 cm square? I've noticed that If you get a big colony, say like is generated by a powerful Italian queen, the bees will sometimes eat the wood away from a 12/15cm sq. entrance,
presumably to open it up. I guess they could just be bored! I like what they hove done here for instance.
View attachment 25597
Have you witnessed this ?
it could have been done by a rodent !
 

Antipodes 

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p

Have you witnessed this ?
it could have been done by a rodent !
Gutsy rodent with 80000 bees in the hive! They did it last season over early summer when the colony peaked in numbers.
 
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