Insulation: I don't get it!

[pargyle]

Nicely put and a very interesting view point, Little John. I've been looking to insulate my hives in order to 'ease' the effort of temperature control and reduce the need for winter store reliance.
After reading your thoughts, I think I will go with insulation but not with the amount I originally intended, based on several posts from some of those you seem to refer to. It's not THAT cold in England usually.
Sort of a happy medium if you will.
Regards Dave

I think I would rather align myself to 2014 science and measurements than dzierons 1882 science and hypotheses ... Bill bielby said in 1972 (about Yorkshire beekeeping) "you can never have enough insulation and the best way to over winter bees is to provide a hive that is as draught free as possible". Whilst I am no zealot and believe people should follow their own path I can't help feeling that those matchstick men who told bill he was barking mad in 1972 just could not accept that there are better or at least different ways - as I said in a previous post there are compelling reasons for insulation and as far as I can see no good reasons not to insulate .... Why do so many bee farmers now use poly hives ? It's not all about weight lifting ...

 

[Little John]

If the insulation is not there, then the heat will be lost, and the bees need to consume more food to produce more energy, and they will wear out that little bit faster.

Or - as heat is lost, the cavity will become colder, and the bees will then cluster more tightly, increasing the efficiency of their own insulation. As less heat is then lost from the cluster, less food will need to be consumed. It's an alternative scenario.
LJ

 

[Finman]

Or - as heat is lost, the cavity will become colder, and the bees will then cluster more tightly, increasing the efficiency of their own insulation. As less heat is then lost from the cluster, less food will need to be consumed. It's an alternative scenario.
LJ

The truth is that in colder hive bees consume more food. Even in Finland professional guys think that warm winter consumes more food. But there are enough measuring on balance hives what happens in hives.

Very important thing is that insulated boxes makes spring build up faster. Colony can rear large brood ball. After 6 weeks those brood will turn foragers. More brood, more foragers.

When I started with polyhives, I noticed that in polyhives I must add earlier boxes at the beginning of summer and hive started surplus collecting earlien than in wooden hives.


In spring I have got very well results with electrict heating and it tells how important heat is to brooding.

.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I insulate on the crown board and have done so since being taught by my grandfather in the 1960s and while working in scotland in the 1980s by a follower of Bernard Mobus

My granfather learnt his beekeeping in the 1920's and insulated his hive under the roof with carpet/pillow or by putting straw in a super above the crown board as did most beekeepers pre WW2

He did not follow the New methods of ventiliation introduced in wedmore's 1947 book and his view was that beekeepers looked at lack of ventilation to explain their losses in the long winters of 1947 , 1948 and early 1950's rather than admit to bad husbandry

my veiw is that since OMF have been introduce most beekeepers have not considered what effect the OMF has on the dynamics of the hive, with some still tilting their hive forward in winter but have open OMFs

i would be intereeted to know whether european and american l beekeepers ventilate their hive by opening the feed holes or lifting the crownd boards by 3mm to increase through ventilation in the wedmore fashion because the few polyhive i have seen in europe have no ventilation other than the OMF and entrance

 

[Little John]

Why do so many bee farmers now use poly hives ?

Why do other types of farmers use artifical fertilisers, antibiotics, give animal protein to ruminants and other dubious intensive methodologies - and breed cows to give so much milk that their udders are so distended that they scrape the ground ?

It's exactly the same paradigm - rather than thinking in terms of something being 'adequate' or 'good enough', there is the pursuit for 'the best'; for 'perfection'; for increased efficiency - more honey per hive, regardless of any hidden costs.

Only human beings think like this - the rest of the natural world doesn't. Perhaps it will eventually be our downfall ?

Every over-wintered colony must be saved, regardless of any long-term genetic costs. Why not let the hardships of winter 'be your friend', by pruning out the weaker stocks ?

LJ

 

[user 6228]

Indeed.

On this forum there is a small cohort of individuals who believe that you cannot have too much insulation..



LJ

My recommended upper limit of insulation is determined by the minimum colony metabolic rate and the scope to expand the cooling surface area of the nest by expanding the volume of the colony , the volume of water being evaporated in hive and of course the maximum ambient temperature in summer. That is why I suggest a maximum thickness of 50 mm PIR all round in a conventional shaped hive with an average sized colony to allow for periods when there is little nectar flow and high temperatures.
These last two summers with several colonies in the garden we have seen very few bees foraging for water and few bees hanging around outside the nest

Bees in a tree nest have the advantage that they increase the cooled surface area of the nest as they expand. If a beekeeper has insulated hives they need to do this for the bees instead. But this is just the process of adding supers in the normal fashion.

 

[midnight sun]

I think I would rather align myself to 2014 science and measurements than dzierons 1882 science and hypotheses ... Bill bielby said in 1972 (about Yorkshire beekeeping) "you can never have enough insulation and the best way to over winter bees is to provide a hive that is as draught free as possible". Whilst I am no zealot and believe people should follow their own path I can't help feeling that those matchstick men who told bill he was barking mad in 1972 just could not accept that there are better or at least different ways - as I said in a previous post there are compelling reasons for insulation and as far as I can see no good reasons not to insulate .... Why do so many bee farmers now use poly hives ? It's not all about weight lifting ...

Agreed. As I stated I intend to insulate my hives and not just in the roofs. 50 mm of Kingspan or similar is usually quoted I believe. I live in an area called the 'Ribble Valley' which is fairly well defended against the harshest of winters due to the surrounding regions. The hives are also surrounded on 3 sides by 7ft fencing and a building on the other to kill off 'wind chill' and the area is a bit of a sun trap in the winter afternoon.
I will be looking at less than 50mm but with upvc airboard cladding as a more resilient structure to support the weaker foam insulation, which will then add insulation back due to it's makeup. That's the theory (no calculations to support this for those waiting in the wings!). It's a cheap experiment for me and my hives. Also this design makes the 'jacket' that will be produced, hopefully, less cumbersome for me to handle. (nerve damage in one hand)
Time will tell.

 

[Tom Bick]

I do insulate the crown board to reduce condensation.

I think in fairness that's all the majority of us do. Some people do wrap their hives up in insulation but only a few and I would say the less experienced who obviously worry. Although we do have one or two who are obsessed with the stuff and that's fine if it floats their boat.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I think in fairness that's all the majority of us do. Some people do wrap their hives up in insulation but only a few and I would say the less experienced who obviously worry. Although we do have one or two who are obsessed with the stuff and that's fine if it floats their boat.

Having walked with my dog last weekend from kew to the Swan at isleworth and seen the poly debris piled up against Brentford lock , your boat must be floating on insulation as well

 

[northernsoul]

I will withdraw the word obsessed and substitute it for interested.
Thanks for the replies and the debate. Still not convinced for the need though.

 

[Madge]

I don't get it either ...
I do insulate the crown board to reduce condensation, but no added insulation around the hive. ...

I think that's what most of us mean when we say we use insulation, Michael - insulation above their heads; not cosies wrapped around the hive - and for me where I and my bees live on a very exposed hill, a bit extra as well: polystyrene hives and insulating dummy boards (but no cosies).
PS: sorry, I see Tom Bick has already made this point!
Kitta

 

[Tom Bick]

Having walked with my dog last weekend from kew to the Swan at isleworth and seen the poly debris piled up against Brentford lock , your boat must be floating on insulation as well

Thankfully not but you can get a lot of football's floating down the river Brent.

 

[REDWOOD]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation. The bees don't need it.
Many of you will remember the Winter of 2010. In December my apiary reached -18C with day time temperatures no higher than -9c. I remember being worried then but bees came through with no losses and with much less varroa I seem to remember the following season.
So stop worrying about insulation.

Off my chest now!

What about 12-13, I think you will find a lot of beekeepers lost quite a few hives and some lost them all

 

[Itchy]

Having seen presentations x2 on insulation and the benefits, I cannot fathom why everyone doesn't have hives insulated to the full.

 

[masterBK]

winter 12-13 due to weather bees had very little chance to stock up on pollen before winter set in. Shortage of protein shortens life of bees, lowers immunity and less brood produced. No wonder so many colonies went under.

 

[peteinwilts]

What about 12-13, I think you will find a lot of beekeepers lost quite a few hives and some lost them all

Reported national average = over 30%.

... but it was not a cold winter, just mild and wet.

 

[Hivemaker.]

... but it was not a cold winter, just mild and wet.

Followed by the coldest late spring for fifty years.

 

[user 6228]

Reported national average = over 30%.

... but it was not a cold winter, just mild and wet.

a "mild" 5C with high winds and rain can remove heat more effectively than calm and severely cold days.
high heat loss does not need extreme low temperatures.

 

[Martin Bee]

Prior to the 1940 insulation of hives was common. The drive not to insulate was essentially a cost availability and ease of use issue. The Rev Langstone was an advocate of insulation as we're the prominent US beekeepers around the time of ww1 . Today insulation is cheap higher performance and light. The reasons not to insulate have disappeared.
We now build houses in this country that are insulated so that occupants own heat is sufficient to provide a comfortable temperature year round. The honeybees living in trees have had this advanced accommodation since the last glaciation.

I found this little trial info perhaps it shows something about new v trad hives
wired.co.uk[/url] /magazine/archive/2015/01/gear/buzz-feeders/viewgallery/341474[/url]
Martin

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The average yield from a UK hive is 37lbs, 16.5kg, IIRC. Also IIRC, we import 86% of our honey.