Installing Kingspan/Celotex above the Crown Board

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

bobba 

Field Bee
***
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
537
Reaction score
303
Location
UK - Hampshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
is just putting the kingspan on top of the roof being totally lazy (weighted down of course)

its still insulation after all !
I am inspired your idea, I am tempted to just make the whole roof out of insulation - job done.

Just cut an oversized bit, put a little rim round the bottom, tape the exposed edges with silver tape and whalar one insulated roof (weighted down of course).

Seems no need for all the extra wood and water proofing The king span should be water tight so long as the foil is in good condition.
 

Erichalfbee 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
24,736
Reaction score
6,161
Location
Ceredigion
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
13
If you’re making a roof out of Kingspan do paint it. The foil degrades in uv
 

bobba 

Field Bee
***
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
537
Reaction score
303
Location
UK - Hampshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
If you’re making a roof out of Kingspan do paint it. The foil degrades in uv
I think (I could be wrong as usual) that the foil is good in terms of UV stability.

But any damage would let a little water ingress and it would slowly go wrong from there.

But you are right that the foil is the weak spot. Its vulnerable to any mechanical damage, even putting a brick on top. I think whacking strips of silver tape over the top would offer better protection than paint, both for weathering/UV or mechanical damage.

I figure I always end up with off cuts when I make insulation squares. So to make them a bit bigger and make a rim from some off cuts probably wont cost a lot if any more. Silver tape is cheap and holds up incredibly well if put on right.
 

Erichalfbee 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
24,736
Reaction score
6,161
Location
Ceredigion
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
13
I think (I could be wrong as usual) that the foil is good in terms of UV stability.

But any damage would let a little water ingress and it would slowly go wrong from there.

But you are right that the foil is the weak spot. Its vulnerable to any mechanical damage, even putting a brick on top. I think whacking strips of silver tape over the top would offer better protection than paint, both for weathering/UV or mechanical damage.

I figure I always end up with off cuts when I make insulation squares. So to make them a bit bigger and make a rim from some off cuts probably wont cost a lot if any more. Silver tape is cheap and holds up incredibly well if put on right.
I left mine unpainted and the foil started to discolour and flake off. Recticel.
 

citrus 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
666
Reaction score
35
Location
sarf london/surrey
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
5 hives
I am inspired your idea, I am tempted to just make the whole roof out of insulation - job done.

Just cut an oversized bit, put a little rim round the bottom, tape the exposed edges with silver tape and whalar one insulated roof (weighted down of course).

Seems no need for all the extra wood and water proofing The king span should be water tight so long as the foil is in good condition.
Well for the last few years i have been really lazy and just had a big slab on top of the poly roof ...


they stay on all year round ...but have cut some up now to go in the "winter insulator super" with a feeding void ready
 

bobba 

Field Bee
***
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
537
Reaction score
303
Location
UK - Hampshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
I left mine unpainted and the foil started to discolour and flake off. Recticel.

Thanks for the warning Danni. Like I said, I assumed it would hold up pretty well to UV. But some brands may hold up better than others, so probably best to take no chances.

If I ever get round to making them I think will defo wack on some silver tape just in case. I think its worth it for the mechanical protection anyway so extra UV protection is a bonus.




Well for the last few years i have been really lazy and just had a big slab on top of the poly roof ...


they stay on all year round ...but have cut some up now to go in the "winter insulator super" with a feeding void ready


And tanks for the picture Chris. I always like to see another garden setup like mine.

Are those Christmas lights I can see on your hives? why?

And CDs - are they for blocking the holes in your crown boards?
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

International Beekeeper of Mystery
***
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
28,587
Reaction score
6,437
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
Thanks for the warning Danni. Like I said, I assumed it would hold up pretty well to UV. But some brands may hold up better than others, so probably best to take no chances.
I think in most cases it's not actually 'foil' as in tinfoil but a plastic based coating so it will deteriorate in sunlight
 

drdrday 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
565
Reaction score
535
Location
Nr Maidstone, Kent, UK
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
Hi all,

When installing do I cut the insulation to fit within an eke or super above the crown board so it sits snug within the hive?

TIA!
I have insulation cut to fit snuggly inside the roof, which stays there permanently all year round. In the winter I also add a 50mm deep eke between the crownboard and roof that has a second slab of Kingspan in it.
 

Garry R 

New Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
83
Reaction score
93
Location
Somerset
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6
Whenever I overwinter nuclei in polyMaisies I leave the Miller type feeders on with the two empty "syrup" spaces filled with insulation
I make my own roofs with pallet wood and up to now have used roofing felt which eventually gets pin prick holes and the sharp edges get damaged p;us being heavy. A tip I got recently was to use pond liner. Very tough, very flexible and extremely light weight and cheap. And waterproof (well it has to be for the original purpose. As to insulation a slab of it underneath the roof stuck with gorilla glue does the trick. My hive boxes are bought in polystyrene, Swienty or Honeypaw, but I make the rest of the stuff myself to keep costs down. I think it is important for ease pf manipulation to have the boxes bee space perfecr. Roofs etc not so much
 

enrico 

Queen Bee
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
973
Location
Somerset levels
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
5
I make my own roofs with pallet wood and up to now have used roofing felt which eventually gets pin prick holes and the sharp edges get damaged p;us being heavy. A tip I got recently was to use pond liner. Very tough, very flexible and extremely light weight and cheap. And waterproof (well it has to be for the original purpose. As to insulation a slab of it underneath the roof stuck with gorilla glue does the trick. My hive boxes are bought in polystyrene, Swienty or Honeypaw, but I make the rest of the stuff myself to keep costs down. I think it is important for ease pf manipulation to have the boxes bee space perfecr. Roofs etc not so much
I use it on all my shed roofs. UV stable, goes on flat, perfect!
 

bobba 

Field Bee
***
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
537
Reaction score
303
Location
UK - Hampshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
I think in most cases it's not actually 'foil' as in tinfoil but a plastic based coating so it will deteriorate in sunlight
I just pealed a little bit of foil off some Kingspan (as in actually branded Kingspan) and tried burning it.

I can confirm it is definitely foil - hence my initial assumption it would stand up well to UV.
 

Gilberdyke John 

Queen Bee
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
4,323
Reaction score
620
Location
HU15 East Yorkshire
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
10
I just pealed a little bit of foil off some Kingspan (as in actually branded Kingspan) and tried burning it.

I can confirm it is definitely foil - hence my initial assumption it would stand up well to UV.
If it's aluminium foil it should dissolve in dilute HCl (spirits of salts) and give off hydrogen
 

Beebe 

Gunslinger
***
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
998
Reaction score
838
Location
Scotland
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Somehow it's escalated to seven.
The "foil" on PIR is a composite which uses a micro-thin layer of aluminium on a support backing. I'm not sure if that backing "paper" is entirely or partly synthetic, but for certain, it's not the same pure, aluminium foil as used in the tape that we use for sealing the joints.
 

Curly green finger's 

Apiculturist to the bones!
***
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
4,232
Reaction score
2,147
Location
Titterstone clee South Shropshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Over 50
The "foil" on PIR is a composite which uses a micro-thin layer of aluminium on a support backing. I'm not sure if that backing "paper" is entirely or partly synthetic, but for certain, it's not the same pure, aluminium foil as used in the tape that we use for sealing the joints.
Are you buzzing because it's Friday?
 

citrus 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
666
Reaction score
35
Location
sarf london/surrey
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
5 hives
Thanks for the warning Danni. Like I said, I assumed it would hold up pretty well to UV. But some brands may hold up better than others, so probably best to take no chances.



And tanks for the picture Chris. I always like to see another garden setup like mine.

Are those Christmas lights I can see on your hives? why?

And CDs - are they for blocking the holes in your crown boards?
/starts singing/
"I wish it could be Christmas ever day ay ayay "

true be told tho they are were broken and dont like to throw things away so they are "bird scarers" ....and same for the cds" .... we have the occasional woodpecker in our garden but mainly feasting on ants but thought I would it might help ... (never been an issue but not seen elephants in the garden since they were up either !)
 

bobba 

Field Bee
***
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
537
Reaction score
303
Location
UK - Hampshire
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
4
Because it doesn't burn? that will be the fire retardant in it
I could see the edges glowing like hot metal, so am confident its Aluminum.

If it's aluminium foil it should dissolve in dilute HCl (spirits of salts) and give off hydrogen
Ok, If we gona get all technical and stuff.

I tested it for conductivity and it is conductive.

Its also non-magnetic.

So It looks like we have a non-ferrous conductive silver-colored metal in this case.

Doing a bit of googling it says PIR boars are often faced with aluminum, glass tissue with mineral coating (whatever that is), glass tissue with bitumen coating, and some other strange things.

So I think it is most likely aluminum foil on the kingspan I have.

But other brands or even samples of the same brand may vary.

Anyway there are far more important things to discuss than the exact composition of the outer layer of an over priced bit of insulation. I thought we were meant to talk about beekeeping not material science.

I am going to find a thread where someone is talking about match sticks and laugh at JBM setting them straight, much more fun ;)
 

silentscyther 

New Bee
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Number of Hives
Two
For the external cladding of insulation I painted and varnished on top of the aluminium foil of the 75mm Celotex and down the cut edge. I did this for uv and to separate bees from any chemicals that might be in the polystyrene. It seems to be keeping them cosy. On the National hive I added a super with a queen excluder and laid 2.5kg opened bag of fondant directly above the colony on the rails of the excluder. I then packed it round with celotex and the roof is also with Celotex.
 

Attachments

Garry R 

New Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
83
Reaction score
93
Location
Somerset
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6
I can see it in thousand of years time when some beekeeping archivst will set out a timeline wondering at what point in evolution did bees move from wooden tree trunks to straw skep hives, to double walled wood to cedar Nationals, to sawdust chips, to polystyrene hives to polystyrene insulation, to cellotex. And the Monty Python tribute acts (including Eric Drone-Idle and John "Cleese the Bees") will reminisce about the old days of tree trunk hives saying "if you tell the larvae that today they won't believe you!"
 

Latest posts

Top