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Is it worth looking at possibly starting an online beekeeping "College"

  • Let's do it!

    Votes: 67 51.1%
  • Worth invetigation

    Votes: 50 38.2%
  • Not a lot

    Votes: 14 10.7%

  • Total voters
    131
If it was a modular assortment that people choose from, then they choose the path that suits, with modules set by the tutors/methodology that suited too.

E.g Interested in Top Bar? Use...Freds course Believe in chemicals? Use...Mavis's course Natural beekeeping Brosville's etc. That way you choose the path that suits you...and so many passes = a certificate...in the type of beekeeping you are interested in.

BUT - marking must be consistent. You can't allow one course to have a pass of 20% and another 90% - standards have to be universal too...do you penalise for bad spelling / grammer or not? Also, the papers must be written in a way that all understand - otherwise if they are poorly written/spelt how will they gain wide-spread respect/acknowledgement?

It suddenly goes from a simple idea to quite a complex one...
 
"but you're offering to teach opinion rather than techniques based on proper study or "fact"" - that's the whole point - there's very little that's "fact" - it's nearly all opinion, habituation and tradition, and what may "fit" into a certain way of doing things may be totally out-of-place in others.
As I said, people need to be "adult", and accept "there are other ways" - if I'm willing to swallow my horror/aversion to many practices in "conventional beekeeping", then "conventional beeks" should be just as grown-up about it*
Presumably all the old differences of opinion will carry on rumbling round this and other forums - that's good and healthy, but it shouldn't get in the way of disseminating knowledge - and if one school of thought yells "we're right, all the others are wrong, and must not be allowed to differ", the whole thing will disappear up it's own exhaust pipe!

I don't think it needs to be at all "complex" - you can have some "intro" courses that explain the complete basics, some "exam type" courses, and some more informal "hobbyist" courses (mentored or not) - if one faction decides it wants it's own section, that's fine too - perhaps have a voluntary "rating" for the courses......

* if they don't gain knowledge of Omlets, top bar hives, Warres or the finer points of queen clipping/marking/treading/replacing from the online college, they'll just get it elsewhere....... A broad church, but "we're all God's chillun"
 
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If you want to offer a "knowledge base" of courses that people can work through then that approach is fine, you can tell people what you like giving whatever reasons for your opinions float your boat.

My suspicion is that if you want to aim to produce material worthy of a nationally recognised certificate of some sort then you need to basing that material on stronger evidence than opinion, gut feeling and personal experience, that's the only point I'm trying to make.
 
In the field of Amateur Radio Licensing, there have emerged a couple of websites that offer tutorial material. Over time, their value has been recognised and they are encouraged if not necessarily endorsed by the National society as a vaulable source of training material.

So over time the values of tutorials produced, given that feedback will help hone the various modules, should improve and with the passage of time their value should begin to be appreciated. Initially any certification will be just a piece of paper, but perceptions change.

Once upon a time, this was just a startup beekeeping forum. I suggest that it is something more easily recognisable and a lot more respected today than it was on day one.

It does take hard work and consistency to eventually arrive, as I'm sure Admin will attest.

As anyone will be able to tell you when reading the Beekeeping Study Notes by Yates. There is a lot of opinion in the notes. It isn't necessarily THE way of doing things, it's what Yates has decided is right and suits his way of working. Alternatives are often given but the opinion does shine through.
 
I'm new and got bees in July but did a lot of reading, internet searches and watched you tube video and *'Hedgerow Pete'*. For what its worth I feel you could start with explaining the different beekeeping options. (I went on an intro course and heard mostly about the British national only). Could cover rational behind top bar, Warre and "conventional" without being too judgmental? Even could mention materials for hives and their pros. that would be great! took me ages to realize there was so many options. Perhaps a video on each hive and layout as some of us may be more visual. Then a tick box check understanding section, for example does Warre method encourage artificial swarm or does "conventional" include non movable frames . I don't know, you are the experts, just my pennyworth.:nature-smiley-011:
 
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one problem I can see, It's a bit late in the season for making video's showing opened hives?
 
I don't think this project can possibly be up and running on the basis of videos.

We certainly could get the basics up, and there is nothing stopping us from linking through to agreed utube vids if they are suitable.

I lectured for years using slides. Videos are very recent and whilst very helpful not totally essential.

For instance they will not assist in memorising the basic table of development which many do not do. And so they are flummoxed when trying to read the colony in the field.

PH
 
I don't think this project can possibly be up and running on the basis of videos.

We certainly could get the basics up, and there is nothing stopping us from linking through to agreed utube vids if they are suitable.

I lectured for years using slides. Videos are very recent and whilst very helpful not totally essential.

For instance they will not assist in memorising the basic table of development which many do not do. And so they are flummoxed when trying to read the colony in the field.

PH
I agree that a 'table of development' is one of the most useful and empowering things a new beek can learn to help themselves.
It helps in a whole range of questions.
Can we get one up on there?
 
I've been lurking and following this one. Allow me to ask some "devil's advocate" questions; I see a lot of enthusiasm and good suggestions which I don't want to criticise, but not much clarity and consistency of outcome. I don't know after seven pages what this might achieve. Do you?

How are you going to avoid re-inventing the wheel, avoid opinions being presented as facts, achieve consistency across component courses, agree and periodically revise a comprehensive syllabus, etc.? If you want to award some sort of progress recognition, how are you going to manage the practical and theoretical assessments, who will set the tasks/questions, who will assess/mark, who will moderate to ensure fair treatment and consistency?

The BBKA are putting a lot of effort into their Course in a Case (CiC) initiative. This involves creating new training materials, including video footage, recruiting and training more trainers, and getting the materials out to associations. The various levels can be presented by associations to their members, providing a modular and structured programme of training following a tried and tested syllabus. Assessments are optional, but rely again on existing practical assessors, standards, and processes, and examinations with existing marking, moderation, and assurance of consistent standards.

There has been some misunderstanding of what CiC will deliver, mainly it would seem because the most basic level overlaps with what associations already have developed over the years for some form of novice/beginner course. The subsequent levels of CiC go through the Basic syllabus and then progress through the module/husbandry syllabi in stages; very few associations have any training materials that cover these levels, in my experience.

Do you want to achieve much of this, some of this, or something entirely different?

In the nicest possible way, has this idea been kicked off because the BBKA doesn't recommend top bar hives? Seems an awful lot of re-inventing of the wheel just to promote a different mentality and hive type! Why not just write something that complements the existing material, but fills in the blanks as you see them?

The BBKA associations are often accused of being too prescriptive. I rail against some of it myself, too - I don't believe the National hive is that well suited to much of southern England - but I accept that you have to give beginners something to start with. If you sat down every person who wanted to take on a swarm or nuc and explained all the possible scenarios, the intricacies, all the "well, it depends..." answers to the simple "what do I do next" questions, then they'd never start. Too many variables, too difficult to see what went wrong or to compare like-for-like and actually learn something from the experiences.

By giving beginners a framework within which to work - such as using one simple hive type, a fairly rigid month-by-month breakdown of expected work in the apiary, one method for swarm control, one method for disease monitoring/treatment, one method for overwintering, etc. we're providing them with a framework that should help them find their feet. Yes, it's not perfect, but the alternative is chaos and demoralisation as it all seems too complex, too prone to failure.

How are you going to maintain standards, and breadth of perspective? Who's going to cover all the dull-but-important topics, variations on methods, etc. to a consistent level? Who assesses the 'experts' and mentors to ensure that they can both talk the talk and walk the walk? The internet is a wonderful place for finding distant experts who never have to prove their competence ;)

There have been a whole bunch of beginners books published in the past five years, ranging from the fluffy-muppet end to the beekeeper's bible; there's something there for every taste and aspiration. Armed with a few of these titles, watching a few YouTube videos, attending some meetings and demonstrations, what else is a beginner going to get out of all this work that you are proposing? Surely it will never replace hive-side tuition, and that's what so many are crying out for?

Lots of questions, intended as food for thought. I don't expect a perfect solution, but think more crystallisation of scope is required... :)
 
My original "vision" was to use the wonders of the internet as an "ennabler"- perhaps imagining housebound beekeepers with a wealth of experience putting their experience onto the net in a form it could be accessed by beekeepers at all levels - I certainly didn't envisage it as a rigid format in any way at all - more something that could grow "organically" to become a resource available for people 24/7.
I've punted the idea, and essentially "walked away", in the hope that people "run with it" - I don't have the time or inclination to do more than contribute the odd "article" or "lesson" perhaps.
Yes, I would like to see a broader base, including ALL forms of management and hives - as I said, a resource, for everyone, by, of and for beekeepers - that simple!:coolgleamA:

"How are you going to maintain standards" - is raising a problem where there shouldn't be one - as an essentially "open" resource, if someone shoves up a "rubbish" course, the word will soon spread - on the other hand, if there's a particularly good one, it may be used as part of a more conventional course ("go and read so and so's stuff on Moodle before next week, it's helpful") sort of thing!
 
My original "vision" was to use the wonders of the internet as an "ennabler"- perhaps imagining housebound beekeepers with a wealth of experience putting their experience onto the net in a form it could be accessed by beekeepers at all levels - I certainly didn't envisage it as a rigid format in any way at all - more something that could grow "organically" to become a resource available for people 24/7.
I've punted the idea, and essentially "walked away", in the hope that people "run with it" - I don't have the time or inclination to do more than contribute the odd "article" or "lesson" perhaps.

Understood. How exactly will it differ from the Q&A that people can find on the numerous fora and discussion lists, websites offering advice/opinions etc.? Sure, a different format, but it lacks the approachability of just asking (or searching on) a specific question. Why not just expand the beekeeping entries on Wikipedia with these articles you are proposing?

"How are you going to maintain standards" - is raising a problem where there shouldn't be one - as an essentially "open" resource, if someone shoves up a "rubbish" course, the word will soon spread - on the other hand, if there's a particularly good one, it may be used as part of a more conventional course ("go and read so and so's stuff on Moodle before next week, it's helpful") sort of thing!

I disagree. Duff content in one area will reflect poorly on other areas. Look at the terrible reputation Wikipedia has! If there's no review of quality and correctness, and no consistency of level of presentation/understanding, what value does the material have, and why does it appear any more compelling than any of the existing sources that people can be pointed towards as & when the need arises? How do you avoid opinions being pushed unduly? I hardly think you'd be happy for the section on hive types to dismiss top bar hives as an impractical novelty!

I have a concern that the idea for an online learning resource stems not from a plan to impart good quality knowledge, but because the tools are freely available; the tail wagging the dog. The beekeeping publications are always crying out for decent articles to enliven the usual round of "this month in the apiary" and "strange places to take swarms from". If you think you have a good article in you on a topic, why not submit to them?

This isn't personal criticism, I'm just trying to see what the value of all this work might be, and how it is different from all that is currently available :)
 
I'm probably contradicting myself by offering an opinion after having said "I've walked away", but I think where we differ is summed up by "there's no review of quality and correctness, and no consistency of level of presentation/understanding, what value does the material have, and why does it appear any more compelling than any of the existing sources that people can be pointed towards as & when the need arises? How do you avoid opinions being pushed unduly? I hardly think you'd be happy for the section on hive types to dismiss top bar hives as an impractical novelty!"

- I thought I'd covered that pretty comprehensively earlier in the thread, but to reiterate, I think you are taking a highly conventional, rather didactic approach - "this is the correct way, the only correct way, read, mark learn and inwardly digest, regurgitate what you've learned by rote in the exam room, you'll be a beekeeper" approach.... I'm going for a much more "university level" attitude - "here's a selection of intro courses" to help people decide what sort of beekeepers they fancy being, with several choices and mixes thereafter - let people choose what makes sense to them, rather than saying "this is correct", say instead, "this is what works for me"......... As I said in various earlier posts - let it be what it can be - if it starts with a youtube clip of a sure-fire way of "how to light a smoker", and people use it to learn, then it's already succeeding - lightening the darkness - then just let it grow........
Again we appear to differ on Wikipedia - I think it's an incredible resource, and if used sensibly, an amazingly useful treasury if used wisely (don't take it for "gospel" without doing further reading) - but for a quick reference, blessed useful.......
My view is not to say that it "must" be anything - that takes money and resources, if you want something to be built largely by volunteers, people who do it for the "love of it", then you have to let it grow...... organically.
This sort of approach can work spectacularly well given time - I use Linux exclusively for computing, much of which has been built by cooperative effort by people all adding their small inputs (I'll argue it's better than Windoze) - as summed up by my present operating system "Ubuntu" which loosely translates as "I am what I am because of who we all are."
When it comes to an online learning resource, I'd like to see not another Windoze, but another Ubuntu...........:coolgleamA:
 
I thought I'd covered that pretty comprehensively earlier in the thread, but to reiterate, I think you are taking a highly conventional, rather didactic approach - "this is the correct way, the only correct way, read, mark learn and inwardly digest, regurgitate what you've learned by rote in the exam room, you'll be a beekeeper" approach.... I'm going for a much more "university level" attitude - "here's a selection of intro courses" to help people decide what sort of beekeepers they fancy being, with several choices and mixes thereafter - let people choose what makes sense to them, rather than saying "this is correct", say instead, "this is what works for me"....

With respect, it sounds like you're afraid of any sort of structure in case it taints the purity of the experience. Nobody's saying there is one true method, nobody's saying you have to take exams - as I said above, simple frameworks are used to help people find their feet. What you describe sounds awfully like what is already available from a Google search anyway.

When I was at univeristy, it wasn't the organic experience that you describe. Perhaps science degrees are different. Sure, we had a selection of modules to choose from, but there was a non-optional foundation course running throughout. Mathematics, for instance, was mandatory. Each module was taught by subject-matter experts, backed up by exercises and reading of authoritative texts. What your 'pick&mix' approach misses is that people like shiny things, hate difficult things, and so will naturally choose the easy appealing bits and lack the breadth of understanding that allows them to deal with unforseen circumstances. How often do you hear it said the "the bees don't read the books"?

Do you discount the large body of knowledge that is out there already? Knowledge of behaviour, diseases, racial differences, etc. Do you not gain something in your own beekeeping from an awareness of pheromones, or of the nutritional requirements of a colony, or of the cause and effects of certain diseases? Did you have to teach yourselves these things from observation, or did you learn from established knowledge?

This age of the internet brings many instant experts. What I would suggest, however, is that if people feel they are qualified to teach, participate in the existing systems and improve them from within. Go ahead and take the existing assessments. It shows faith in a culture of education, shows to others that the assessments are achievable, and everyone I know who has done this has said it has improved their beekeeping knowledge and practice. At the very least it shows that you are confident enough in your understanding that you can rationalise and justify your choices and preferences when asked what underpins them. If you can't do this - and cope gracefully with challenges - are you really in a position to be teaching others?
 
As I said, I might in the fullness of time contribute the odd article or "lesson", but am in no way seeking to run courses myself.
I'm personally quite comfortable with a very loose or non-existent "structure" - sod's law says a newbie will be confronted with a swarm with which they have to deal just after lesson 2, and swarms aren't part of the course until module 7, and all their mentors are otherwise engaged....... I think you get the point!
As for "dismissing existing knowledge" - not in the least, what little structure I envisage would allow a broad spectrum of knowledge (and opinion), much gleaned from people with perhaps half a century of beekeeping behind them.
As for my own "personal view" on beekeeping, I am willing to stand back and see much "conventional wisdom" be imparted that frankly makes me wince - but by the same token, those intent on a rigid approach should do likewise for the approaches of the "more" natural beekeeping side.
As I've said before, it requires maturity - if allowed to flourish, it could become a very valuable resource (perhaps with differing "factions" keen to outdo each other with the excellence of their tutorials.....)
This is something fresh, new, and requires open minds, and above all else - imagination - not to get bogged down in how it's been done before, but how it could be done better in the future........
 
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Erm, have I got this right? You don't want to contribute, but you want to see others create a whole new system of education. It shouldn't look like any system which uses a framework to introduce beginners gently, nor should it use examinations, assessments, or be at all rigid about what is good practice and what is bad. (But then again, at the start ofthe thread you were keen for mentors to test/mark learners' progress). It should be a broad church, covering every opinion, approach, and perspective on beekeeping. It should be approachable by all, regardless of experience, aim, or intention, and should deliver what is required against those same criteria. It should be almost completely unstructured but should contain everything that's needed, presumably falling easily to hand. You appear uncertain as to whether competence is measured by peer review, testing, or by time served.

In the nicest possible way, you don't have any idea of what you want to do, just what you don't want to do. Your response to serious questions is simply to add vagueness. Odd that with such uncertainty of scope you've already identified the software with which you're going to achieve it.

I don't really think this is going anywhere!
 
Excellent - he finally disappeared up his own exhaust pipe!:rofl:

It can be whatever it wants to be, if some pedant wants to write a rigid and totally unimaginative course that could just as well have been penned in the Edwardian era, then they're welcome to do so - award medals, cups and illuminated scrolls for people regurgitating what they've learnt - that's absolutely fine...... by the same token, someone else could offer a completely unstructured "pick and mix" informal set of gems that can be used and learnt from as needed, that merely teaches people to keep bees........

"You appear uncertain as to whether competence is measured by peer review, testing, or by time served" - you obviously presume the answer is somewhere amongst those things - for you it may be, for me it's far simpler than that, competence's only measure should be the ability to keep bees well and healthily, in such a way as to respect them and nature itself.

So as I said, a broad church that could and should encompass everything from dogmatic pedants to hobbyists who want to learn, with little interest in formal qualification or exams - to take the real church as an example "we's all God's chillun":coolgleamA:
 
Brosville - I have not encountered you before, but your attitude stinks. I have looked at some of your other recent posts, and see that you have nothing constructive to add to any debate.

I offered constructive criticism, questions, and suggestions, but all you can do is slag, slate, and sneer. One of these days you might just stop telling everybody why everything is wrong with the way things are, and actually do something constructive instead.

You come across as ranting, reactionary, very inexperienced, and a barrier to constructive debate. I hope there aren't many more like you here.
 

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