I'm in a faff....

[Jonnyl]

Caught a swarm from my own hive some weeks ago but no eggs appeared. They were deffo queenless as they built cells from a frame of BIAS from another hive, around 10 days ago. I knocked them down as I'd already arranged for a mated queen. I went back in last week and knocked
down another couple but today I go into the nuc and theres 4 more cells, 2 capped and another 2 charged but not a lot of royal jelly in the cells although they're fully developed cells. The larvae in them still look quite under developed, still at the curled stage but look healthy. How can they have done this? Are they hiding eggs from me? Theres no laying workers as I've put brood in a couple of times and theres still a little brood to emerge. So, should I knock these cells back and unite or wait to see if this queen(s) emerge and mate? I'm flummoxed. Thank you all for any advice.

 

[pargyle]

Caught a swarm from my own hive some weeks ago but no eggs appeared. They were deffo queenless as they built cells from a frame of BIAS from another hive, around 10 days ago. I knocked them down as I'd already arranged for a mated queen. I went back in last week and knocked
down another couple but today I go into the nuc and theres 4 more cells, 2 capped and another 2 charged but not a lot of royal jelly in the cells although they're fully developed cells. The larvae in them still look quite under developed, still at the curled stage but look healthy. How can they have done this? Are they hiding eggs from me? Theres no laying workers as I've put brood in a couple of times and theres still a little brood to emerge. So, should I knock these cells back and unite or wait to see if this queen(s) emerge and mate? I'm flummoxed. Thank you all for any advice.

You may still have a queen in there ~ are you sure there were no patches of eggs anywhere ? ... or, if you are absolutely sure -they will build queen cells on older grubs if they don't have eggs so it may have been a remnant from your frame of eggs if you knocked down their first efforts. They would be pretty scrub queens by this time if they were.

If you have a new queen now best thing would be to split what you have - give her a Nuc with stores and a couple of frames of bees. Leave the queen cells in the other hive with the other half and let them develop. You need to be absolutely certain that your new queen does not have an existing queen in with her though. You can combine the two back together in due course or if you get a mated queen from your scrubs you've got two nucs to take through winter.

Other option is to go through and make sure, once and for all, that there is no queen in the swarm and then introduce your new queen to them ...

The frame of eggs test is not infallible ... if there is a poor queen in there they could have been trying to supercede her ...

 

[enrico]

I take it we are talking about the nuc being queenless.
Swarms are never queenless.
Test frames indicate a state but never prove it. I would suggest your swarm had a virgin. The test frame gave them the chance to hedge their bets and make a queen cell or two. Your virgin mated and started laying her own eggs . The bees are still hedging their bets. My advice. Leave them to it. At the end of the day you need to end up with a laying queen. If the bees decide they like the one you now have they will destroy the cells/queen's for you. If I have got the wrong end of the stick I apologise!
E

 

[Jonnyl]

I put them in the nuc after I caught them believing my own marked queen would be with them. Nope. I waited 2-3 weeks, nothing. I put in the test frame and nothing. I put another frame in two weeks ago and they made cells. Knocked them back. Now there are more cells. Scrub queens I reckon as suggested. Will they be enough to get them through the winter or should I knock them back and unite. I've heard many conflicting things about scrubs. Some say they are rubbish, others say there's nothing wrong with them? My fear is that she doesn't get mated although there are still drones in my hives and I've not seen them being ejected. The weather is set fair for early next week so she would have the opportunity but maybe not the gene pool? What would you both do in my place? On a lighter note I was in my two main hives and spotted both queens for the first time and they're gorgeous. Quiet on the frame and looking lovely and laying very well for this time of year. It's ups and downs this beekeeping lark. Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Jonnyl]

The other thing is royal jelly. Or lack of. They would have been many older bees so not enough jelly producing bees perhaps? This may mean that the cells are rubbish due to this?

 

[Millet]

Why do you keep knocking Queen cells down..? .
Do you have such a reason for killing a colony..

 

[Jonnyl]

Millet. As I put on my original post. I had a queen arranged and was merely awaiting it being ready. Therefore I knocked down the cells to inhibit their own queen running about the hive. That arrangement fell through due to delays on getting her mated so I decided not to wait any longer and reunite the nuc with a full hive. When I went into the nuc today I saw more cells thus my question.......on the beginners section! I'm fed up to the back teeth with disparaging remarks from some beekeeping sages and gurus (not you as I've gathered) on the site which is otherwise wonderful. Please don't respond if A. You don't bother to read the posts. B. You have nothing constructive to contribute. C. You're simply looking to criticise. I'm a first year keeper and certainly not up to your august standard so please find it in your heart to forgive my naivety and lack of nous. One day perhaps I'll attain the heady standards of your good self and be the oracle of all things apis. Until then I will stick with others like the above who attempted to help me in a practical and knowledgable sense. "Everybody is a genius...." after all.

 

[pargyle]

Millet. As I put on my original post. I had a queen arranged and was merely awaiting it being ready. Therefore I knocked down the cells to inhibit their own queen running about the hive. That arrangement fell through due to delays on getting her mated so I decided not to wait any longer and reunite the nuc with a full hive. When I went into the nuc today I saw more cells thus my question.......on the beginners section! I'm fed up to the back teeth with disparaging remarks from some beekeeping sages and gurus (not you as I've gathered) on the site which is otherwise wonderful. Please don't respond if A. You don't bother to read the posts. B. You have nothing constructive to contribute. C. You're simply looking to criticise. I'm a first year keeper and certainly not up to your august standard so please find it in your heart to forgive my naivety and lack of nous. One day perhaps I'll attain the heady standards of your good self and be the oracle of all things apis. Until then I will stick with others like the above who attempted to help me in a practical and knowledgable sense. "Everybody is a genius...." after all.

 

[Millet]

Millet. As I put on my original post. I had a queen arranged and was merely awaiting it being ready. Therefore I knocked down the cells to inhibit their own queen running about the hive. That arrangement fell through due to delays on getting her mated so I decided not to wait any longer and reunite the nuc with a full hive. When I went into the nuc today I saw more cells thus my question.......on the beginners section! I'm fed up to the back teeth with disparaging remarks from some beekeeping sages and gurus (not you as I've gathered) on the site which is otherwise wonderful. Please don't respond if A. You don't bother to read the posts. B. You have nothing constructive to contribute. C. You're simply looking to criticise. I'm a first year keeper and certainly not up to your august standard so please find it in your heart to forgive my naivety and lack of nous. One day perhaps I'll attain the heady standards of your good self and be the oracle of all things apis. Until then I will stick with others like the above who attempted to help me in a practical and knowledgable sense. "Everybody is a genius...." after all.

I asked a Question as thousands will.. i have not been in your predicament through doing what i do...the best of luck with what you do..

 

[bobba]

Hi Jonnyl,

I am a first year keeper too. I had a similar experience with queen-less hives. I tried introducing queens and lost 2. So I have 2 hives that I am unsure of their queen state.

I am no pro but think what pargyle says about splitting should you have access to another queen is good advice.

I am baffled by the state of my hives too as I have seen no brood for 5 weeks, but the populations still seem high, possible even growing!

A lot of people advised me to be patient and observe.

I can vouch from personal experience, its difficult not to overthink things and take action. But I think particularly as a beginner a bit of patients and observation can go a long way.

I hope it works out ok and you can get your bees through winter.

 

[Jonnyl]

Hi Jonnyl,

I am a first year keeper too. I had a similar experience with queen-less hives. I tried introducing queens and lost 2. So I have 2 hives that I am unsure of their queen state.

I am no pro but think what pargyle says about splitting should you have access to another queen is good advice.

I am baffled by the state of my hives too as I have seen no brood for 5 weeks, but the populations still seem high, possible even growing!

A lot of people advised me to be patient and observe.

I can vouch from personal experience, its difficult not to overthink things and take action. But I think particularly as a beginner a bit of patients and observation can go a long way.

I hope it works out ok and you can get your bees through winter.

Thank you Bobba. My two hives are strong with this years queens which I bred myself so I'm confident they will be make it although I understand it's never a given. Once I caught the swarm, my first btw, I thought I'd done well and housed them quite the thing. I didnt panic but observed as you suggested, quite correctly, as I'm finding out. After several weeks no eggs appeared so in order to discover if they had a queen and to prevent laying workers i added a test frame. Nothing happened but at least it gave them hope. To check, another was added, depleting my main hives, a situation which I was not about to continue with, to this end I ordered a mated queen as I live in Scotland and it was now late July. After a routine inspection and having ordered a queen I then found other queen cells well after the date that I imagined them to be hopelessly queenless but low and behold there are cells again. How good they are, will they survive/thrive was the essence of my question as I, like yourself, have never encountered this situation. In short just when I thought I had improved I'm caught plum LBW once again. Frustrating but not hopeless. I'll see how they go and give em a wee chance. If it doesn't work then at least I will have observed and learned a little bit more. As this is my first full year I'm still encouraged by the fact that I've doubled my hives (albeit only one to two 14x12s) and harvested honey in a season. Next year hopefully four. And a couple of nucs for back up. I dont have access to a queen now so that option is out I'm afraid but I'll keep buffering* on. It took my two new queens several weeks to start laying too so dont panic yet and stick with it. It's true when they say the bees know best, they really do. Regards to your good self too and I wish you every success. Keep watching sir. Regards

 

[enrico]

Millet. As I put on my original post. I had a queen arranged and was merely awaiting it being ready. Therefore I knocked down the cells to inhibit their own queen running about the hive. That arrangement fell through due to delays on getting her mated so I decided not to wait any longer and reunite the nuc with a full hive. When I went into the nuc today I saw more cells thus my question.......on the beginners section! I'm fed up to the back teeth with disparaging remarks from some beekeeping sages and gurus (not you as I've gathered) on the site which is otherwise wonderful. Please don't respond if A. You don't bother to read the posts. B. You have nothing constructive to contribute. C. You're simply looking to criticise. I'm a first year keeper and certainly not up to your august standard so please find it in your heart to forgive my naivety and lack of nous. One day perhaps I'll attain the heady standards of your good self and be the oracle of all things apis. Until then I will stick with others like the above who attempted to help me in a practical and knowledgable sense. "Everybody is a genius...." after all.

Sorry you feel that way. I will not comment any more. I was merely trying to tell you what I thought had happened. Best of luck
E

 

[mike99]

Sorry you feel that way. I will not comment any more. I was merely trying to tell you what I thought had happened. Best of luck
E

Hi Enrico. I have never found your comments to be negative. Far from it. I am a beginner and need all the advice I can get and your responses to my queries are always measured and helpful.

 

[enrico]

No problem. The whole site has seemed a friendlier place in the last few weeks. I am still learning after 40 odd years!
E

 

[bobba]

Definitely keep the forum updated on your situation. I for one am interested to hear what happens.

I understand exactly what you have done. But I cannot quite understand the timing. How long was it between putting in the 1st and 2nd test frames. From when the second frame went in, how long was it before you assumed they were hopelessly queen-less? And how long until you discovered the surprise Q-Cells? I am assuming you found the Q-Cells on the second test frame.

You see, I am wondering if the bees could have got a sneaky Q-cell past you on the 1st frame and hatched a sly Q. And now the bees are already trying to superseded her. Perhaps she is a poor quality emergency queen, badly mated, or damaged.

It could be your sly mated queen has started a brood break with the exception of some queen cups. Could a badly mated queen even intentionally hold back on worker production to reserve limited sperm for the spring?

If there is already a mated queen in the hive, which by what you say must be how the last lots of Q-cells were started. Then the assumption would be they are either swarming or superseding. Based on the time of year it is most likely the latter. According to Dave cushman (link below). Late in the season it is safe to leave multiple supersedure cells in place with out a high risk of swarming.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/supersedurecells.html

So in other words - I would do nothing.

Please remember I am a complete beginner with little experience and am mostly regurgitating knowledge.

Breeding queens, catching a swarm, extracting some honey, and doubled your hives - happy days.

I got my first swarm this year, I was completely unprepared. I made a right mess of it. When I say completely unprepared, I really mean it. I almost fell out of the tree when the bees thudded into the box An apple fell right into the cluster in the box too, making that distinctive bee crunch. It caused mass casualty's, surprisingly this did not upset the bees in the slightest. Then I had to make a nuc from scratch to put them in, only to realize (after trying to put the bees in) that there were far too many bees to possibly fit. It was probably one of the most hectic days of my life, but great fun.

 

[enrico]

good to hear the story Bobba. I still vividly remember the day I had a branch in each hand with half a swarm on. As I shook my right hand into the nuc my left hand involuntarily did the same thing and shot the other half of my swarm down my welly. We all make mistakes!
E