I don't believe it! Buckfast bumped off?

[Tomo]

I had two nucs headed by Buckfast Queens, both started completely from scratch, absolutely certain they were the only queen in the box. Both have been in their nucs for nearly four weeks..both building well. One ready to re-house in full size hive. Inspected today and found a different Queen in one of the Buckfast's place! I can only think that she was a returning mated Queen from another hive. Can she have bullied her way in, killed the Buckfast Queen and taken over? I cannot think of another explanation. Obviously no QCs beforehand. All was good. I went through the box 3 times no sign of the Buckfast Queen, I know she may turn up with a bit of luck but my feeling is that she has been killed by the other queen.Suggestions please as to what has happened. This is rather frustrating.Thanks.

 

[protheroe]

I've had a queen fly off from mini nuc after marking her.found her in a 5 frame nuc alongside the queen that was already in the nuc.both went through winter and I used one of them for another nuc in the spring.

 

[Motobiman]

I've had a queen fly off from mini nuc after marking her.found her in a 5 frame nuc alongside the queen that was already in the nuc.both went through winter and I used one of them for another nuc in the spring.

Was that two queens laying alongside each other and for how long do you reckon they lived together in the Nuc in harmony?

 

[tonyofarr]

I have seen virgin queens return from mating flights to the wrong box, even though all my nucs and mating nucs are painted in a variety of colours and with very careful placing and orientation.

I saw one lovely big q return to a box, and the guards did seem to be a bit defensive but they let her in, then there was a load of racket and by the time I got the box open she had been stung by the resident queen. I was gutted as the weather was poor and I was struggling to get queens mated.

I have come to the conclusion that sometimes bees do stupid things.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I can only think that she was a returning mated Queen from another hive. Can she have bullied her way in, killed the Buckfast Queen and taken over?

Snelgrove describes exactly this scenario in the "virgins" section of "The Introduction of Queen Bees". Apparently Mum's DD's cannot be trusted not to take the free upgrade. Baffles me genetically but there you go. She's gone, I'm afraid.

 

[For want of a better word]

From my experience of keeping the so called "B" hybrids when living in Surrey.
Newly imported "B" queens were introduced to 5 frame nucs, marked and clipped, and a queen excluder fitted to prevent queen running out and from intruders getting in.
A week before expected postal delivery, Nucs had to be made up ... a 1/2 AS to prevent any possibility of another queen and drones ( 2 of stores and 3 of brood with attached bees ) nuc frames checked at 3 and 7 days for queen cells and any ... and play cups broken down.
new imported queens introduced in a cage and checked released into nuc after a day.
Feeders essential to get the "B" going ( 1:1 syrup)

A lot of faffing .. but when the queens were costing 1/2 weeks wages.......

Needless to say don't bother with imported queens as have perfectly fit for purpose native locally bred bees!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Both have been in their nucs for nearly four weeks..
<snip>
Inspected today and found a different Queen in one of the Buckfast's place!

4 weeks is long enough for them to supercede a queen with a daughter produced from her own eggs (or any egg/larva already in the nuc).

 

[For want of a better word]

Snelgrove describes exactly this scenario in the "virgins" section of "The Introduction of Queen Bees". Apparently Mum's DD's cannot be trusted not to take the free upgrade. Baffles me genetically but there you go. She's gone, I'm afraid.

Granddad said that the "B"s smelled a funny colour!...
perhaps the foreign pherriemoans are different!

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

4 weeks is long enough for them to supercede a queen with a daughter produced from her own eggs (or any egg/larva already in the nuc).

Shirly wouldn't the "B" nuc be checked for such an event after 7 days... just in case?

Yeghes da

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Inspected today and found a different Queen in one of the Buckfast's place!

Seems to be a common occurence with Buckfast queens - been reported a few times on here and seen it for myself. Bees accept and release the queen, she starts laying then they kill her and make EQC's!

 

[B+.]

Shirly wouldn't the "B" nuc be checked for such an event after 7 days... just in case?

Yeghes da

Tricky subject: you need to wait long enough to allow the introduced queen to gain acceptance and fatten up/start laying, but, not so long that a rival can emerge and nobble your new queen.
I would say the ideal has got to be to make the nuc from a shook swarm of bees from the supers. That way, there is no risk of an egg/larva making it into your nuc

and "Don't call me Shirly" ;-)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If no inspections (OP had left impression this could be ruled out) then the simplest explanation is supersedure. Again, lots of talk around of introduced Qs being superseded and I had it happen this weekend for the second time this year.

She's still gone, I'm afraid.

 

[For want of a better word]

Tricky subject: you need to wait long enough to allow the introduced queen to gain acceptance and fatten up/start laying, but, not so long that a rival can emerge and nobble your new queen.
I would say the ideal has got to be to make the nuc from a shook swarm of bees from the supers. That way, there is no risk of an egg/larva making it into your nuc

and "Don't call me Shirly" ;-)

As our Welsh GURU said...
Bees allowing "B" import lay up and then bump her off and superseed...... at least you would still have her "B" genetics in the offspring......

This could lead to ANGRY bees... which is why we requeened every year with new imported "B" queens....

Vicious circle ?


Yeghes da

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

This could lead to ANGRY bees...

Is there a solid source on this? It happened to me once with a late mating but I live in dread of it (see the garden beekeeping thread)

 

[B+.]

Vicious circle ?

Indeed it is.
No matter what race / line of bees you keep, you have to test them yourself if you are ever going to make any progress.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I had a LASI queen in a nuc bumped off by a virgin escaping the carnage inside a left alone Wally Shaw split.

 

[Obee1]

I had a LASI queen in a nuc bumped off by a virgin escaping the carnage inside a left alone Wally Shaw split.

Have you lost your 6 legged replacement LASI queen?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I had a LASI queen in a nuc bumped off by a virgin escaping the carnage inside a left alone Wally Shaw split.

Hmm: that's a lesson learnt vicariously, thank you. I have a mess in one nuc in my "mating apiary" that will not be requeened and is currently full of EQCs after yet another regicide. I ran in a chosen virgin yesterday but if they bump her off I need to thin the cells rather than just waiting a few weeks to "* a duck and see what hatches". ADD Or it may just be shakey-shakey time; I do not want EQC queens from a nuc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have you lost your 6 legged replacement LASI queen?

No not the replacement she is alive and well and sitting on four frames of brood

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hmm: that's a lesson learnt vicariously, thank you. I have a mess in one nuc in my "mating apiary" that will not be requeened and is currently full of EQCs after yet another regicide. I ran in a chosen virgin yesterday but if they bump her off I need to thin the cells rather than just waiting a few weeks to "* a duck and see what hatches". ADD Or it may just be shakey-shakey time; I do not want EQC queens from a nuc.

Yes indeed. I like his method. I won't give it up but I WILL thin cells
I went into a little correspondence with Wally who kindly answered my questions about what might be happening inside that box. He admitted he didn't really know as he never looked in until he expected to find a laying queen weeks later. As I said I like the method just not all aspects