how to phase out old brood frames?

[wondervet]

Dear All, would be very grateful for a spot of advice.

the colony at issue is in a single brood box national.

this colony arrived last July as a nuc with 5 frames which look like they've been on the go since noah was keeping bees. each about 4cm thick, dark, manky and irregular.

So we crammed them into a brood box with 5 new frames which they've drawn out and all has gone on OK, quite a vigorous colony, although the inspections are a bit of a hassle since trying to fit these big old frames back into the box requires a lot of jiggling about each time.

So, I know when we open this up in spring it's all going to require a bif of a sort out and that really the sooner we can get rid of the manky frames the better.

question is, what is the best way to do it?

advice much appreciated

 

[BKF Admin]

Do you have a spare brood box ?

What you could do is put a QE on and move the old frames to the top box.
Once any brood is hatched you can remove the old frames.
Dont forget to make sure the queen is in the bottom box.

If they put stores in the combs remove the queen excluder and replace with a crown board,they will then move any stores down into the brood nest leaving you empty combs to melt down/dump.

 

[wondervet]

thanks for swift reply Admin. sounds good.

Yes, do have a spare brood box. Just put the five old frames in the top box on their own? or do I need to fill up the rest of the space with new frames to avoid them building bridge comb?

 

[BKF Admin]

Well done you got it,yes fill the space,you could be silly with crumpled newspaper ect but I would give them frames.

Maybe 5 super frames with foundation ?
That way you can just remove the bur comb and pop them in your super ready drawn.

 

[wondervet]

Cunning!

 

[Lois]

Funny this should come up just when I was going to ask something similarish.
I got a new flatpack hive for Crimbo (Love you Garry) with frames etc, Garry built it and my intention is to transfer my present colony into the new hive and give the old hive a bloomin good scrub and refurbish. Some really old and manky frames in the old hive. so can I gradually swap the frames up or is there a better way to do it?

 

[oliver90owner]

Wondervet and Lois,

A steadier way might be to just keep moving the unwanted frames to the outer edges and remove them as they become broodless, replacing with drawn comb or foundation. Same end result. Any honey in the old frames can be recovered by the bees having access to it over the crownboard. Another way could be a shook swarm for an immediate result. Or, maybe build them up onto a double brood and then split for increase - one very strong colony and a five frame nuc to develop over the summer

So as usual, several ways to accomplish the same end result. Either decide up front or leave it to the actual time and decide after taking into account the colony strength, the weather, and the forage at the time.

No need for any hassle whichever way you wish to proceed, but if it is a case of, quote:the sooner we can get rid of the manky frames the better, the shook swarm would likely be the soonest.

Regards, RAB

 

[wondervet]

Yes I suppose that's slightly different from what we've got -with half a brood box of decent drawn comb frames to keep in the lower box along with some fresh ones of foundation.

I also have an additional query.....

Why does putting a crown board (presumably with feeder holes open)between the lower brood box with new frames in and the top brood box with the old frames in make them shift the stores down out of the top box? And is there not then a risk that the queen will make her way up and lay in the manky old frames again?

 

[wondervet]

Thanks RAB. I'm a bit out of sequence as started replying to Lois before read yours.

any risk of chilling brood if put frames to outside?. I'm looking at doing this early spring.

pardon my further ignorance....a shook swarm would mean sacrificing the existing brood in those frames?

 

[oliver90owner]

You don't put brood to the outside of the box, only work manky frames towards the outside edges of the broodnest. When she has new comb to lay in, those frames can be moved a stage closer to the outer edge of the box as they become clear of emerging brood. By the time they get there they will have no brood in them at all, if your hive is made of wood (a polyhive may be different). May have been more of an option for Lois, that one.

Certainly a shook swarm is instant and effectively a partial 'Bailey change' (Admins suggestion) will take 3 weeks.

Shook swarm loses current brood but also reduces varroa, if that is an issue, and with the extra impetus of the colony needing to get going again means they often seem to catch up with other colonies before long - probably due to laying space being used for egg laying and not clogged with stores at that time of the year, along with getting fed copious amounts of food for wax building! I might not waste all the brood, the odd frame being used in another colony (I've only done it once).

I just threw in a few alternatives which you can go with if not confident of another method. They will all achieve the same end result. Your colony will have had those manky frames for at least 6 months, so what is a few more weeks, if the method suits better?

Regards, RAB

 

[wondervet]

advice much appreciated.

 

[RoofTops]

I would do a shook swarm but not everyone likes this approach despite lots of evidence it works very well in the UK and the bees would be better for it. A less spectacular method would be a Bailey frame change.

Put a box of foundation over a queen excluder above the existing box. After a period the bees will draw out the foundation especially if you feed them with weak syrup. At this point move the queen up above the QX and leave for three weeks, after which period you can remove the lower box.

Hey Presto! all the bees on brand new comb.

I would still do a shook swarm...quicker and better for the bees in terms of reducing varroa and any brood disease.

 

[BKF Admin]

So thats 3 plus options so far.
What is it they say about ask a group of Beekeepers

 

[freethorpe bees]

Thanks for asking this question Wondervet and Lois. I got a nuc in May that has horrible plastic spacers on the frames and I want to get rid of them. Now have to decide what method to use..... Why can't there be just one answer to a question for a change!

 

[Hombre]

For what it's worth, if you have two colonies that can absorb the brood frames, which will give them a boost, then a shook swarm is the way to go, because the shook swarm and a bit of feeding while they draw brood comb to get HM laying in accelerated mode.

My shook swarm experience last year was very good. They bounced back very quickly and were my most productive colony - Carniolans. They did think about swarming at the beginning of July, when I had taken my eye off the ball, but give it a try. If you have a single frame of empty drawn comb then HM could be laying slightly faster. Maybe a Queen excluder to guarantee that they don't abscond before they have brood to anchor them.

Donating brood: most colonies can absorb one or perhaps two frames of open brood, but overloading the available bees can lead to the brood not being adequately fed or abandoned, so don't do a shook swarm and expect one colony to accept all the brood.

With only a single colony, then a Baily comb change is the logical way to go.

 

[Arfermo]

So, I know when we open this up in spring it's all going to require a bif of a sort out and that really the sooner we can get rid of the manky frames the better. Question is, what is the best way to do it?

Bailey comb change is the usual recommendation when it is a question of changing all the frames for new. See attachment.

 

[Mike a]

I would also opt for shook swarm method around April time provided the colony is a reasonable size with plenty of young bees. The 3 week gap may seem the wrong thing to do but it works well and the colony will benefit long term.

 

[Hughesie]

I think this post needs to be put with the "Sticky" elite as it is very informative

 

[frenchbees]

I also would like to replace old frames with new. I had planned to wait till April when the bees are active.However, at the moment all the bees seem to be in the nearly empty super eating the fondant I put on top of the super frames.
I suspect this would not be a good idea, but just in case, could I replace the brood box with a new bb with undrawn foundation at this time of year if it didn't involve disturbing the bees?

 

[RoofTops]

No, the bees would have to draw out the comb in order for the queen to start laying, which she could well be thinking about now. To draw out the comb requires young bees and lots of stores.

You could do it if you had drawn comb and the bees were really all up in the super. Assuming you don't have drawn brood comb I suppose you could use shallow framed drawn comb from last years honey crop but I am not really sure that gets you anywhere. They would build comb below the shallow frames, mostly drone as like as not so you would still need to get them onto proper frames later.

You could give them one or two frames of foundation if the queen has no where to lay in say early March. Then I would do a Bailley frame change or shook swarm in April.