How many DN4 frames in a National Hive?

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Beeline 

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Hi All
Something has been bothering me since I transfered my first nuc 2 weeks ago into a National box. I'm told that a National takes 11no. frames however when I added the 6no. DN4 frames of foundation to the 5no. from the nuc box, I realised there was space for a twelfth frame - is this right? Does one simply shuffle the 11no. frames to be all roughly equally spaced apart? I know that the super I assembled above had those castellated strips which forced the spacing.

Sorry, I have tried searching on the forum without success. These are DN4 National frames I bought with the "--- on a budget" range from Th****s.

Also another thing I have asked elsewhere on someone elses thread but seems it was overlooked - how does one know when the flow is back on again as some are reporting. Is it a case of simply examining the frames or it is as obvious to see on a bee as pollen. Reason I ask is because I have been told to feed them but when do I stop?

Many thanks.
BL
 

enrico 

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They will take 12 when they are all brand new but get a bit of propolis and you will struggle so make a board up out of an old frame to replace the 12th frame with. This also helps because when you take the board out you have room to play with the frames without damaging the bees or wax on the other frames. Always seems stupid to have the spare room until you have had the hive a couple of years and then all becomes apparent !! Hope this helps
E
 

enrico 

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you can tell by the amount of bees flying, if they are flying in one direction, if they are bringing in pollen, hefting the brood/super regularly to see how heavy they are.
It does come with experience but you will soon get the idea!!!
Good luck
 

Flatters 

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The is room for twelve but they are designed for 11 plus dummy board. If you put twelve in the twelth can be difficult to get out as it get propolised. Some go with 12 and some use 11 plus dummy. It is a matter of personal preference.

For me 11 plus dummy board.
 

the naked beekeeper 

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A National can take 12 frames yes, but the 12th frame is very awkward to get out without rolling the bees and a lot of jolting to the hive if they are heavy propolisers.

I use 11 and a dummy.

You know when there is a flow on as you will see flight activity from the hive like you've never seen before. At night time there is a content roar audible from the hive, that's them evaporating water from the nectar. You'll also see more and more nectar and honey by the week!

If you have given them some foundation, then you can feed them some 1:1 to encourage them to draw the frames out.

If you're hoping for a surplus of honey, then I'd stay away from anyting stronger than that. Stop when you can see the frames are drawn out, or just before.
 
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Fit a dummy board into the space

When inspecting first remove the dummyboard.
move each frame up to/ in direction of/ where the dummyboard was

when you get to the end... 11th frame, slide all the frames back in one and replace dummyboard.
this prevents HM or anyone else from getting squished.
a spot of vaseline petroleum jelly on the metal/ plastic runners helps!

Not a silly question at all.. but I have seen many "experienced" beeks make a dogs dinner over such a simples idea!!
 

oliver90owner 

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Common sense tells me to put the dummy in at altenate ends each inspection - not move 11 frames when the gap is already there but simply at the other end. KISS principle in action!

RAB
 
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Tractor man is right {as ever}

That's what I usually do..... and I can see no reason not to.. although the "experts" say to put frames back exactly in same place and orientation as you found them.. quite why baffles me too!
 

Beeline 

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Thanks all!! not worthy. I was sweating I had botched it up. OK so I'll get a dummy board in.

I took Tim Hoopers advice and faced my hive towards the 10 foot boundary hedge - 6 foot away, so they swirl up and up and off in all directions. So difficult to see if it is one direction. I'll have to master that lifting option.

They have been rather slow in kicking starting the drawing out of comb as they've been in just over 2 weeks and still on original five frames. I just want them to be up and ready for winter.

Thanks
BL
 

enrico 

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Get under the bees near the hive so that you can see them flying with the blue sky above them. You will soon see which way they are headed!
 

MuswellMetro 

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Where's the me too smilie...Somehow I NEVER have enough dummy boards.
just cut a 12mm ply board the size of the frame less 10mm deep and add a 432mm 12mmx10mm top bar

B&G do 10x12mm for about £1 per metre and i get the 12mm ply off cuts from skips


or for an economy one ( like as advertised in a big supplier''s winter Sale for £2.78)

Try a bit of correx the size of your frame nailed to a 10mm square bar 432mmm long

you can cut the correx with scissors or if no correx then use hardboard

they cost pence to make and work but i prefer ply ones
 

peterbees 

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If you stand alongside the hive on a warm evening and you can hear the roar of bees inside the hive, converting the day's nectar into honey, then you'll know that there's a honey flow on.
 

Poly Hive 

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Some colonies have very specific comb shapes and if you turn them about or mix and match then you will have problems. Or rather give the bees a great deal of work and risk crushing the queen.

Sometimes the "experts" as some disparagingly call them do actually have a wee glimmer .... and some peeps ain't a ghoster.....

PH
 

Beeline 

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Enrico I'll take your suggestion and lie down next to the hive and look skywards to see if they are flying in one direction and at the same time listen for that buzz.
Think I'll do that with my veil on this time as I got too confident with them last weekend and whilst removing the roof to replenish their sugar water, without a veil on, got zapped on the nose. I was powerless to brush it off as I had the roof in both hands. Had friends arrive no less than 5 mins later for a BBQ which I conducted with a weeping eye and swollen nose. Respect for the gals I say!! Certainly from now on.
 
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Pennyfold Bees 

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:thanks:

An old thread but it had very useful answers to me as a new bee keeper this year. I'll order a dummy board too. I found this through a search engine and have now signed up to this forum. Looking forward to finding out more useful information!
 

itma 

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:thanks:

An old thread but it had very useful answers to me as a new bee keeper this year. I'll order a dummy board too. I found this through a search engine and have now signed up to this forum. Looking forward to finding out more useful information!
Welcome.
Do consider using DN5s rather than 4s.
The difference is that the 5 has a wider top bar, so, on hoffman spacing, there is an 8mm (correct) beespace between top bars - rather than the odd 12mm you have with DN4's.

And ADDED - 4's and 5's are on the same spacing, so the same number fit in a box!
 

Luminos 

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:thanks:

An old thread but it had very useful answers to me as a new bee keeper this year. I'll order a dummy board too. I found this through a search engine and have now signed up to this forum. Looking forward to finding out more useful information!
:welcome: to the forum.
A bit of useful information - get another colony. I learned the hard way about only having one.
 

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