How do we protect our native bee species

[For want of a better word]

How do we protect our native bee species?
https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/opinion-how-do-we-protect-our-native-bee-species

May be of interest to beekeepers.

Yeghes da

 

[Erichalfbee]

Interesting link. Thanks for posting

 

[B+.]

How do we protect our native bee species?

Its odd. Everywhere they have these bees, they complain about them.
Don't get me wrong....if they were selectively bred to make them more productive, disease resistant, etc and less aggressive, I'd say "Go for it".

 

[For want of a better word]

Its odd. Everywhere they have these bees, they complain about them.
Don't get me wrong....if they were selectively bred to make them more productive, disease resistant, etc and less aggressive, I'd say "Go for it".

Who are "THEY"?

A myth spread by one of the BBKA module BASIC books by a chap called Yates... who could not have seen or have kept them as he assures us that the bees in question were extinct!

From my own experience not any more aggressive than any others.. unless crossed with Carniolian!

Carniolian ( Pureish) bees I have kept in the past were well behaved if not a bit on the swarmy side and not as productive as the NZ Italian stocks that I still keep.
BUT as Finnie says .... it does depend on the available forage

Yeghes da

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Several individuals here are "breeding the native bee". There is even a society committed to doing just that, but unfortunately not much progress seems to have been made in developing a bee with desirable characteristics. The much publicised DNA testing seems to have been quietly allowed to sink from view, it must have backfired badly!
All black bees here have to be a mixture of imported stock, the sheer volume of bees imported from The Netherlands, France and elsewhere in the wake of the IOW disease ensures that. Later introductions of Carniolans, Italians, Caucasians and Buckfast complete the scene here and allow AMM breeders to have bees prolific enough to split into nucs.! I suspect the situation in Cornwall may be similar.
At a later date when more time is available here, it can be discussed further if anyone wishes. But let it be understood, no one is seeking the extinction of native AMM, nor would one condone any attempt to do so. There is however a total lack of evidence to show it exists. But if such evidence does exist, I would be very pleased to have it brought to my attention.

 

[For want of a better word]

Several individuals here are "breeding the native bee". There is even a society committed to doing just that, but unfortunately not much progress seems to have been made in developing a bee with desirable characteristics. The much publicised DNA testing seems to have been quietly allowed to sink from view, it must have backfired badly!
All black bees here have to be a mixture of imported stock, the sheer volume of bees imported from The Netherlands, France and elsewhere in the wake of the IOW disease ensures that. Later introductions of Carniolans, Italians, Caucasians and Buckfast complete the scene here and allow AMM breeders to have bees prolific enough to split into nucs.! I suspect the situation in Cornwall may be similar.
At a later date when more time is available here, it can be discussed further if anyone wishes. But let it be understood, no one is seeking the extinction of native AMM, nor would one condone any attempt to do so. There is however a total lack of evidence to show it exists. But if such evidence does exist, I would be very pleased to have it brought to my attention.

usual mimbo ~jimbo, mumbo~jumbo rolled out as soon as there is any mention of native bees on this forum!

Problem is that the DNA evidence of the pure native bees of the British Isles is often the intellectual property of some one and not published and that that is available not easily interpreted by the average beekeeper without a basic understanding of the methodology that underpins DNA analysis.

Yeghes da

 

[Little John]

I don't know why people thing that using a larger typeface or a bright colour enhances their argument ....

Nature (i.e. in the course of Natural Selection) made a pretty good attempt at wiping out AMM a hundred years ago. Perhaps Mother Nature was trying to tell us something ... ?
LJ

 

[Swarm]

Not really, remember how influenza killed more than WWI.
Constant introduction of foreign stock is the major problem facing AMM and those trying to perpetuate the myth about their demise are doing their fair share as well.

 

[Beefriendly]

Problem is that the DNA evidence of the pure native bees of the British Isles is often the intellectual property of some one and not published and that that is available not easily interpreted by the average beekeeper without a basic understanding of the methodology that underpins DNA analysis.

It's usually quite easy to understand as they look at possible pure Amm populations for the percentages of their genome that is contaminated with genes specific to other races, such as Italians, Carniolans etc. The methodology may be unfamiliar to most but the results as percentages of purity are usually quite clear.
Whilst I used to have a full copy of this paper I can only access the abstract now.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15643954 but it gave an overview of what remained. There are other studies as well.
Basically most populations of Amms are contaminated. Those on the Isle of Colonsay representing the purest UK population left. As I recall all the other UK populations never got above 80% at best, so not very pure.

There are several breeders who can supply you with queens from very pure strains of Amm, well over the 90% mark. I have some Irish Amm queens sat less than 30 yards from where I'm typing this. I'm surprised more people don't use them. They are a very pleasant bee to work with, far superior to any local mongrels (in my area at least). If you go in for shows, their cappings can't be beat, the best, cleanest and whitest I have ever seen. I was most impressed with that aspect as it was exactly as Br. Adam stated many years ago.

However, they are not honey monsters and seem quite prone to chalk brood. Don't know whether it's the local conditions in my area, but they are also prone to annual swarming.
So they get one more year to prove me wrong in my current assessment and if not then they are for the final big trip.
The other bees I use are far more productive and disease resistant, at least in my locality.

 

[Little John]

Not really, remember how influenza killed more than WWI.
Constant introduction of foreign stock is the major problem facing AMM and those trying to perpetuate the myth about their demise are doing their fair share as well.

I don't quite see the relevance of what you've written. The influenza outbreak of 1918/9 killed those (with whom it came into contact) with the weakest constitution - especially those with weak lungs. Many of those with stronger constitutions survived.

Those killed in WWI by bullets or shells died quite independently of the strength of their constitutions.

You talk about the demise of AMM as being a myth - neither of us were alive at that time, but from contemporaneous reports, there was widespread decimation of honeybee colonies up and down the country. I don't see that decimation as being a myth.
LJ

 

[Little John]

post removed by admin

 

[For want of a better word]

Last edited by Beefriendly; Today at 05:45 PM.


Chalkbrood has not been a problem since I discovered and started using the now banned Hiveclean!

Vimto with 3% added oxallic acid as a tonic will possibly work as well?

On DNA alone we have some Amm that are well over the 80% UK average.... and have no introgression showing up in the mt DNA which is really encouraging.
Now also have a pedigree lineage recording system set up... but that IMHO will not in all reality prove anything very much as I believe that the environment has more to do with temperament and productivity.... subject matter for the PhD hypothesis?

Give me potatoes...give me lucky charms !

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Environmental conditions?
Wrong side of UK?
Introgression
Same problems I had with my ( MR Brown) Carniolions from Liverpool some years back.... petrol was the only cure for them horrors from hell!

Yeghes da

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Thank you to those who were kind enough to respond. Reading one or two of the replies, I am minded of someone here who recently had his hives shot to bits in his two widely separated apiaries.....because he kept Buckfast bees. Sadly there was no condemnation from the black bee fraternity, had there been, they would have risen inestimably in my opinion.
There is no doubt that AMM exists in Ireland, one was not casting doubt on that. What I am querying is the origin of these bees, vast amounts of black bees from the continent were used for restocking here after the IOW disease decimated whatever was here originally. Can it be shown that these imports are not the origin of the AMM found in Ireland today? If it can that is splendid,
but if it cannot then some serious issues are raised.

 

[For want of a better word]

Thank you to those who were kind enough to respond. Reading one or two of the replies, I am minded of someone here who recently had his hives shot to bits in his two widely separated apiaries.....because he kept Buckfast bees. Sadly there was no condemnation from the black bee fraternity, had there been, they would have risen inestimably in my opinion.
There is no doubt that AMM exists in Ireland, one was not casting doubt on that. What I am querying is the origin of these bees, vast amounts of black bees from the continent were used for restocking here after the IOW disease decimated whatever was here originally. Can it be shown that these imports are not the origin of the AMM found in Ireland today? If it can that is splendid,
but if it cannot then some serious issues are raised.

Blindly leading away from my OP .. simply advising that there is a research project underway!

Quite what IOW disease ... whatever that was?? or "Buckfast" hybrid types of bees have to do with it beggars belief.
Perhaps the moderators need to do some post culling/

Yeghes da

 

[midnight sun]

Some profess to be breeding and improving the native bee. Then sells buckfast queens on this forum! Smart! No purity attempts are going to get close whilst we keep on allowing imported queens. Lets be honest, how many Buckfast Queens are ACTUALLY bred here? Just my little rant!

 

[B+.]

Some profess to be breeding and improving the native bee. Then sells buckfast queens on this forum! Smart! No purity attempts are going to get close whilst we keep on allowing imported queens. Lets be honest, how many Buckfast Queens are ACTUALLY bred here? Just my little rant!

You'd first have to define what a Buckfast is. There is no morphometric or genetic test that you can perform to say a bee is, or isn't a Buckfast. Professor Brascamp referred to the Buckfast as a "synthetic" strain since it is in a constant state of flux, depending on periodic contributions from stable races to maintain the hetoresis effect which it is so well known for. By synthetic, he meant it is man-made and didn't evolve in the same way as the geographic races did.

 

[Fusion_power]

I had more than a little experience with A.M.M. bees in the 1969 to 1993 time frame. They were runny on the comb, preferred nectar sources that made extremely dark honey, swarmed early and often, and were profligate pollen collectors. Countering this were a few good traits such as being extremely thrifty, making beautiful cappings, and having the most incredible spring buildup imaginable. I'm fortunate to still have a few of those traits in my bees. Thriftiness in winter is particularly useful.

I'm more likely to believe that the native black/brown bee is no longer present given that they were wiped out by trachea mites here in 1988 and wiped out again by varroa in 1993. In other words, I think Brother Adam was correct that only some hybrids survived in the UK.

 

[Finman]

Last edited by Beefriendly; Today at 05:45 PM.


Chalkbrood has not been a problem since I discovered and started using the now banned Hiveclean!

Vimto with 3% added oxallic acid as a tonic will possibly work as well?

a

Wrong advices... Hive Clean is oxalic acid. Heat of the summer heals chalk brood during summer. That is why all tricks work, what ever you do.

Presence of chalk brood tells, that actually no one breed Black Bee seriously. Chalk brood is easy to breed away.

And what I have understood, Black Bees are sensitive to EFB too, and it is easy to weed off by breeding like chalkbrood.

.

 

[Finman]

I I think Brother Adam was correct that only some hybrids survived in the UK.

It is strange that Brother Adam knew everything.

I think that there are lots of Black Bees in Britain. But who can calculate them.