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'hopelessly' queenless?

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Howsoonisnow 

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When making a hive queenless, how long after the last brood is sealed can the colony be left before it can be deemed as 'hopelessly' queenless before introducing a new queen?

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Heather 

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'Making queenless'? Accident? deliberate? At this time of the year?

Earlier I would have introduced a frame of eggs from another colony to see the ?queenless colony's reaction. If they ignore they are ok - if they start developing an egg into queen cell- then it is queenless and you can either let it develop or introduce a new mated queen asap.

But now is too late to rectify, IMO- just newspaper combine with another colony if it is a small colony you have.
 

mbc 

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When making a hive queenless, how long after the last brood is sealed can the colony be left before it can be deemed as 'hopelessly' queenless before introducing a new queen?

Thanks
You can introduce new queens before the last brood is sealed, in fact, if I'm just 'swaping' queens then anything after 4 or 5 hours of removing the original queen the colony will be receptive to a new queen
 

Finman 

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When making a hive queenless, how long after the last brood is sealed can the colony be left before it can be deemed as 'hopelessly' queenless before introducing a new queen?

Thanks
In autumn we cannot say it. The bees winter normally without the queen. I have met it many times. When the hive kills couple of queen in autumn, it is better to leave so over winter. Then in spring you may join it into the queen right hive and nothing bad happens.

In summer I cannot say. I do not keep the hive queenless or broodless very long.

When you note that the hive is queenless, it is same how long it has been. It does not help you.
 

Howsoonisnow 

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mbc

When you wait 4-5 hours, do you introduce your new queen in a cage?

Instead, as alternative, having made them queenless, could you introduce the new queen in a small nuke via the newspaper method overnight?
 

winmag270 

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mbc

When you wait 4-5 hours, do you introduce your new queen in a cage?

Instead, as alternative, having made them queenless, could you introduce the new queen in a small nuke via the newspaper method overnight?
I've "rubbed out" a poor queen and immediately united with a q+ colony, using the newspaper method before, with no problems....

wasn't this late in the season, though!

but how about some background on what you're wanting to do and why....?
 

Moggs 

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It's my understanding that a the potential for success of queen introduction is improved if the bees can distribute the new pheromone around the colony. This is possible from a cage as the bees have some physical contact with her - I suspect that the exclusion by newspaper would inhibit that distribution of pheromone until the point of 'breakthrough' when all hell might let loose.

This is a very unqualified view from a new beekeeper's perspective - just borne out of experience to date and a measure of intuition. All in all I would go for the Q cage.
 

Howsoonisnow 

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I'll have to learn to catch and cage the queen.

I just thought it'd be easier to avoid doing that.

I would plan on any re-queening to take place during the spring or summer.
 

Heather 

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Personally, I always introduce via a cage into a large colony- just in case she is mobbed- insurance. Check next day -if she is still not released and then it is safe to do so.
 

Moggs 

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H - would you like to say how this has come about? Are you sure that this colony is Q-? It may appear to be so but for example, after Varroa treatment a Q may stop laying for a while, (and coupled with the rapid decline in temperatures, around here at any rate...) - could she still be present?

It's not really the time of year to be poking about to find out. Uniting without proper preparation (finding the Q) could be catastrophic (I appreciate that you have made no mention of this yourself).
 

Howsoonisnow 

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Moggs

Its hypothetical; I'm just trying to figure out the best way of re-queening next spring.
 

Finman 

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Quite important thing is the age of queen after mating.
An Austaralian research tells that if you try to hive the queen which has mated under 2 weeks ago, losses will be 30%. I have found that this is a profounding information.

If I give a queen, which new bees allready emerges from combs, bees accept the queen is very easily.

If the hive has larvae and they have started to make queen cells, let them first to seal them. It takes about 5 days. After capping the queen cells bees accept what ever. Don't brake the queen cells. Look next day if the new queen has broken them. If not, it is your job to find them all.

********

If you give couple of frames of nuc bees to another hive, bodies will be seen soon. Perhaps all the nuc bees.
Newspaper will not save them.

If you put two equal size colonies together, they do not fight at all. Bees do not know who is the master of situation.

This year I gove with success nuc+queen to the bigger hive so that I put an extracted comb box between nuc and the bigger hive. This is better to do in the evening that robbers will not join the party.
 
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mbc 

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mbc

When you wait 4-5 hours, do you introduce your new queen in a cage?

Instead, as alternative, having made them queenless, could you introduce the new queen in a small nuke via the newspaper method overnight?
Yes I'd use a cage
Uniting using the newspaper method is an even safer method of queen introduction and any concerns about lack of pheromone transfer are missgiven because as soon as there are tiny holes in the newspaper the workers fronm either side will start swapping pheromones thus 'uniting' the colonies by the time the holes are large enough for bees to get through ( thats the theory at least ! )
 

MuswellMetro 

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anacdotaley I have found carnolian bees more difficult to accept a non carnolian queens in a cage
 

Howsoonisnow 

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Would using a snelgrove board for a small queenright nuke for a day or so above the queenless colony help with her later introduction?


Would this be a sure fire method of introduction?

1. Let the queenless colony make sealed queen cells.

2. Place small queen right nuke above over a snelgrove board for a couple of days over queenless colony.

3. Remove queen cells in queenless colony then unite using newspaper with nuke.
 

oliver90owner 

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The simple answer to the original question is before the last brood is capped. More than 6 days, so 7 days after the last eggs should be the correct answer to the correct question.! No uncapped brood means the colony is already hopelessly queenless!

Why 6? Because the bees can only make a queen from a worker larva which is still being fed on royal jelly; after 3 days the larval food for workers (and drones?) is 'bee bread'; sooo, 3 days for the latest eggs to hatch and 3 days for the larva to be a worker for sure.

Now if there is no queen, eggs or open brood, the time delay is zilch. Simples.

Requeening as soon after this is preferable to delaying and getting laying workers in the colony.

Regards, RAB
 

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