HMF and making up syrup

[Gilberdyke John]

In an old 2011 thread it was mentioned that boiling sucrose syrup created HMF. In the light of the current thread about how hot (temperature of syrup) bees can take syrup and the usual topic drift, I'm curious as to how significant using boiling water to make up syrup is to HMF creation.
Personally I aren't likely to have any problems since I make my autumn 2:1 syrup up with white T&L et al product, plus water straight from the cold tap and agitate several times over the day. Normally the sugar has gone into solution by next morning when the bucket(s) are standing in the kitchen. At that point I add a dose of HM emulsified thymol and mix ready for feeding via rapid feeders. Maybe commercial beekeepers haven't got the luxury of time that I have but I'd estimate most members of the forum could easily prepare their syrup the day before use?

 

[ColinS]

More info about HMF here from about 5min 25secs in
Bees Like Sugar Too!
National Honey Show
youtube. com/watch?v=R86DOPiX-3s(can't post link yet only 6 posts ) She goes on to say it is in Bakers' Foundant etc

But not watched it all.

 

[ugcheleuce]

In an old 2011 thread it was mentioned that boiling sucrose syrup created HMF.

The local wisdom is that boiling sucrose syrup can't create HMF. HMF is created from fructose, so the story goes, and fructose is created from sucrose by adding acid or an enzyme to it, not by simply boiling it. I can't cite a URL, though.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

The local wisdom is that boiling sucrose syrup can't create HMF. HMF is created from fructose, so the story goes, and fructose is created from sucrose by adding acid or an enzyme to it, not by simply boiling it. I can't cite a URL, though.

The old thread I mentioned has a post from Alan F (is he still around? ) which said boiling sucrose would create the products but adding acid would speed up the process. Do we have any members with knowledge of the chemistry of sugars?

 

[ugcheleuce]

The old thread I mentioned has a post from Alan F ... which said boiling sucrose would create the products but adding acid would speed up the process.

Well, I know too little about all of this. I google like crazy, but I struggle to find definitive answers. My current impression is that you can get HMF from sucrose syrup at low temperatures (i.e. 100 degrees Celsius) if you keep it at that temperature for about an hour and if you add a catalyst (typically some weird chemical that you won't find in any house). You can also get HMF from sucrose syrup if you heat it up to high temperatures (i.e. 150 degrees Celsius), but unless you're using a pressure cooker, you'll never get your 1:1, 1:2 or even 1:3 sugar solutions up to that temperature (if you do get it to that temperature, it'll no longer be 1:3, but will be thicker than honey). At the time that HMF is produced, the the syrup also turns brown. That's what I currently have in collective wisdom on the subject. It would be interesting to hear if I'm dead wrong or something.

 

[Finman]

.
To make syrup into cold water or in pressure cooker? And alternatives between that

That is mystery, why to make simple thing so difficult?

Have you heard or read that beehives have died for "over heated" syrup?

If syrup heating or boiling has a slightest danger, it has been noticed during last 100 years, but I have not seen anything.

Cooking berries with sugar makes poisonous food, or baking cakes in 200C....?

If you do not meet casualties of "heated sugar", what idea is to think, how dangerous the stuff is?

.

 

[Finman]

.
Honeybee suite in Canada writes about HMF and it is started:" Deaths of million of Honeybee across the globe ..". I know, that there is no such deaths on globe. I do not trust on specialist, who does not know important basics.

Beekeeping is so full of self made problems that they are many fold compared to simple basics of beekeeping.

.

 

[ugcheleuce]

To make syrup into cold water or in pressure cooker? And alternatives between that ... That is mystery, why to make simple thing so difficult?

I think you misunderstood the point I was making. We're talking here about the theoretical conditions under which HMF will form in sucrose syrup.

Have you heard or read that beehives have died for "over heated" syrup?

Yes, just google "HMF" and "HFCS" in the same search query.

If syrup heating or boiling has a slightest danger, it has been noticed during last 100 years, but I have not seen anything.

It has indeed been noticed, but not by all.

Cooking berries with sugar makes poisonous food, or baking cakes in 200C....?

You're forgetting something important: what's poisonous for bees may not be poisonous for humans. HMF is toxic to bees but is harmless for humans. Oh, another example: if honey is full of brood disease, humans can still eat it without getting sick, but if you feed it to bees, they'll die.

 

[ugcheleuce]

.
Beekeeping is so full of self made problems that they are many fold compared to simple basics of beekeeping.

Yes, and one of the simple basics of beekeeping is that bees in a winter cluster don't poop out their waste but keep it inside them, which means that if the sugar syrup you fed them with contains "contaminants", it will have a much greater effect on the bees during winter than during summer. Simple beekeeping basics. Another of the beekeeping basics is that low concentrations of something that is toxic to bees can be tolerated in strong, lively hive, but higher concentrations of the same toxin can kill the hive. Simple beekeeping basics.

 

[enrico]

I googled it and it apparently means 'high maintainance female'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I googled it and it apparently means 'high maintainance female'

Is there any other kind?

 

[beeno]

I googled it and it apparently means 'high maintainance female'

That is soo funny!

 

[thenovice]

The local wisdom is that boiling sucrose syrup can't create HMF. HMF is created from fructose, so the story goes, and fructose is created from sucrose by adding acid or an enzyme to it, not by simply boiling it. I can't cite a URL, though.

you are correct that sucrose hydrolysis is extremely slow in normal lab conditions (in destilled water). however, if you use tap water, in some areas, this water will be acid. enough to cause hydrolysis? probably not significantly. who is boiling up their syrup anyway? I pour boiling water over it and that is enough to dissolve it 2:1. bees never complained (let cool down to reasonable temperature first though )

Fondant is a completely different story...

 

[Finman]

.
I have forgot many "theoterical points", even if I have education of biological researcher.

But I just made empty the last hive on my remote hive site. IT had 140 lbs capped honey. Before evening I put 15 litre feeder on the hive and put there conventional syrup. First I bring the hive home.

I have too self made formic acid pads. It is nice day today to put them into hives . Sun is shining and temp is 15C.

Greetings from Fossile Yards!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

.
To make syrup into cold water or in pressure cooker? And alternatives between that

That is mystery, why to make simple thing so difficult?

Have you heard or read that beehives have died for "over heated" syrup?

If syrup heating or boiling has a slightest danger, it has been noticed during last 100 years, but I have not seen anything.

Cooking berries with sugar makes poisonous food, or baking cakes in 200C....?

If you do not meet casualties of "heated sugar", what idea is to think, how dangerous the stuff is?

.

Not making anything difficult but asking a simple question about hmf from sucrose and boiling water. Let's not wander off down the usual blind alleys of conjecture and myth please.

 

[Finman]

Not making anything difficult but asking a simple question about hmf from sucrose and boiling water. Let's not wander off down the usual blind alleys of conjecture and myth please.

Have you ever boiled water?... And the reason was to cook potatoes 20 minutes, or just get the water hot?

When you make syrup, it helps nothing if you boil syrup. IT just make no sense..


Let me ask, have you ever met facts about harms what hmf makes to bees. Have you even heard? I have not.

In food control hmf is a sign of old honey, or sign that too much heated. That has nothing to do welfare of bees.

Next question is, how much hmf needs that it is poisonous to wintering bees.

Is this question drawn just from Air without Real reason?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Well, I know too little about all of this. I google like crazy, but I struggle to find definitive answers. My current impression is that you can get HMF from sucrose syrup at low temperatures (i.e. 100 degrees Celsius) if you keep it at that temperature for about an hour and if you add a catalyst (typically some weird chemical that you won't find in any house). You can also get HMF from sucrose syrup if you heat it up to high temperatures (i.e. 150 degrees Celsius), but unless you're using a pressure cooker, you'll never get your 1:1, 1:2 or even 1:3 sugar solutions up to that temperature (if you do get it to that temperature, it'll no longer be 1:3, but will be thicker than honey). At the time that HMF is produced, the the syrup also turns brown. That's what I currently have in collective wisdom on the subject. It would be interesting to hear if I'm dead wrong or something.

Thanks for the information. It's useful to know it's unlikely that any measurable hmf will be created during making up sucrose syrup with boiling water, which was the basis of my query.

 

[enrico]

Years ago we made our winter candy by boiling sugar in water until it went into a solid block. Hotter than boiling jam. You put it over the feed hole and the bees licked it if they needed it. Never seemed to harm anything!
E