Hives, Sizes and Management

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My father regularly used the 1948 David Brown cropmaster tractor my uncle Dai bought in new, as it was better suited to the narrow track and smaller fields we had on our smallholding, my cousin still has it - fully refurbished just before the pandemic although he only uses it for charity tractor runs and the occasional Sunday spin with his wife (it is a two seater.)

 

[blackcloud]

Still use my Massey Ferguson 135,and my beesuit lives in my dads national service kitbag he borrowed from the army after his stint in the REME in Cyprus during the mid50's.Use my uncles old National which is a Steele and Brodie he got seconhand in the early seventies.

 

[rdartington]

‘FRee-hanging comb’ has been questioned.
This is a free-hanging brood comb in a 11x18 frame with no bottom bar. - built naturally by the bees from a starter strip attached to the top bar. Typically attached by the bees to the side bars only part of the depth, leaving the bottom part free-hanging . This frame is from a first year brood nest - not yet extended full depth.

A broodnest is kept at 35 deg C however much external temperature varies. So there is continual heat loss, using honey as the energy source. . In nature bees devlop a sherical brood nest which minimises surface area for a given volume. What I am interested in exploring is how much that affects the total stores left over to be laid up for winter.
a phyisist could do that by calculation - wattage lost by temperature difference between the surface area of the brood nest and the surroiundings - but there are also convection losses, so complicated. If it is significant, hives for such frames would produce more honey for the beekeeper.
The ‘einraumbeute’ (single space box) developed by the Mellifera Association in Germany, called the Golden Hive as the frame dimension follow the golden ratio that occurs naturally in nature, is fully described in the book ‘Keeping Bees simply and respectfully’ which assiciation librarians could be asked to buy.
Mellifera’s aim when developing a new hive was however to get ready for the small hive beetle which is almost certain to invade Europe - and UK - at some time.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have a colony of small black bees that arrived as a swarm in a 14x12 bait hive. While the two original “frames” were starter strips the rest were foundation. Their brood nest is spherical with pollen all round and honey on top and at the sides. The 14x12 format seems to have been big enough for them to achieve that.

 

[fian]

View attachment 34693

‘FRee-hanging comb’ has been questioned.
This is a free-hanging brood comb in a 11x18 frame with no bottom bar. - built naturally by the bees from a starter strip attached to the top bar. Typically attached by the bees to the side bars only part of the depth, leaving the bottom part free-hanging . This frame is from a first year brood nest - not yet extended full depth.

A broodnest is kept at 35 deg C however much external temperature varies. So there is continual heat loss, using honey as the energy source. . In nature bees devlop a sherical brood nest which minimises surface area for a given volume. What I am interested in exploring is how much that affects the total stores left over to be laid up for winter.
a phyisist could do that by calculation - wattage lost by temperature difference between the surface area of the brood nest and the surroiundings - but there are also convection losses, so complicated. If it is significant, hives for such frames would produce more honey for the beekeeper.
The ‘einraumbeute’ (single space box) developed by the Mellifera Association in Germany, called the Golden Hive as the frame dimension follow the golden ratio that occurs naturally in nature, is fully described in the book ‘Keeping Bees simply and respectfully’ which assiciation librarians could be asked to buy.
Mellifera’s aim when developing a new hive was however to get ready for the small hive beetle which is almost certain to invade Europe - and UK - at some time.

The curious thing between your photo and erichalfbee's comment and Layens' experience is that the optimum seems to be around 12".
Could you measure what they have done? If your length is 11" free (without thickness of the wood) then what is the length/width ratio?

 

[pargyle]

View attachment 34693

‘FRee-hanging comb’ has been questioned.
This is a free-hanging brood comb in a 11x18 frame with no bottom bar. - built naturally by the bees from a starter strip attached to the top bar. Typically attached by the bees to the side bars only part of the depth, leaving the bottom part free-hanging . This frame is from a first year brood nest - not yet extended full depth.

A broodnest is kept at 35 deg C however much external temperature varies. So there is continual heat loss, using honey as the energy source. . In nature bees devlop a sherical brood nest which minimises surface area for a given volume. What I am interested in exploring is how much that affects the total stores left over to be laid up for winter.
a phyisist could do that by calculation - wattage lost by temperature difference between the surface area of the brood nest and the surroiundings - but there are also convection losses, so complicated. If it is significant, hives for such frames would produce more honey for the beekeeper.
The ‘einraumbeute’ (single space box) developed by the Mellifera Association in Germany, called the Golden Hive as the frame dimension follow the golden ratio that occurs naturally in nature, is fully described in the book ‘Keeping Bees simply and respectfully’ which assiciation librarians could be asked to buy.
Mellifera’s aim when developing a new hive was however to get ready for the small hive beetle which is almost certain to invade Europe - and UK - at some time.

There are quite a few of us on here who are foundationless ... I've never used foundation from the day I started beekeeping, My frames are 14 x 12 and the bees build what they want within them. They do usually manage to fill the whole of the frames but you are not alone in recognising that, towards the end of the season in particular, they tend to confine the brood area to a circular central area within the frames. I'm also a fan of well insulated hives .. most people on here recognise the benefit that a layer of insulation (50mm Kingspan or Celotex) above the crownoard brings to the ability of the colony to maintain that brood nest temperature consistently, regardless of the ambient temperature outside.

Derek Mitchell has done much research on the internal thermal dynamics of the beehive and his latest work has been involved with measuring and identifying the convection patterns inside the hive which is fascinating. Sadly, Derek no longer contributes to the forum but he regularly does his talks to beekeeping associations and if you haven't heard him speak it's worth looking out for.

Bill Bielby did some work in the 1960's seeking to find out what bees preferred to build in the way of free comb and in his book 'Home Honey Production' he described the 'Catenary' hive. He was also a very early exponent of insulation of hives to assist the bees.

https://www.beesforbabar.org/pdf/home_honey_production.pdf
My own Long Deep Hive is a double skin with a sandwich of 25mm of polystyrene between the inner and outer skins of timber - with further loose insulation above the crown board and in the roof. The bees love it and it produces huge colonies ...although, being 14 x 12 frames they tend to store a lot of honey above the brood nest and with no supers available the surplus is usually found in frames at the periphery. It seems to create more bees than it does honey although there are usually three or four 14 x 12 frames of stores as well as that around the brood nest so this may just be perception on my part. It's not unusual to have 14 or 15 frames of brood (and I've seen more !) in the hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157634865981506

 

[rdartington]

I have a colony of small black bees that arrived as a swarm in a 14x12 bait hive. While the two original “frames” were starter strips the rest were foundation. Their brood nest is spherical with pollen all round and honey on top and at the sides. The 14x12 format seems to have been big enough for them to achieve that.

That was my own experience as wellback in 1975 and I have used long hives taking 14x12 ever since , so I am glad of your comment.
How do you work the hive through the year?

14x12 does allow the bees to build an initial spherical nest, that becomes bell shaped as it ages.
Nine 14x12 will hold 40 lbs of winter stores in half the comb area. So they winter well
but extra comb is needed for the summer honey crop that the beekeeper can collect - and as I cannot lift National supers I made half-sized honeyboxes for Dartington hives, as said before - and I also work the hive in combination mode, so six deep frames are added and subtracted each year, plus three or four honeyboxes as well.

 

[Erichalfbee]

How do you work the hive through the year?

The same as any other, adding supers as necessary.
The orange bees are different. Their brood nest extends across all the frames as I confine the queen to the one box. These often store some pollen in the first super.
I loathe double brood boxes.

Some of these are Demareed.
Some have the queen split off when swarm cells are found.

 

[rdartington]

The curious thing between your photo and erichalfbee's comment and Layens' experience is that the optimum seems to be around 12".
Could you measure what they have done? If your length is 11" free (without thickness of the wood) then what is the length/width ratio?

As said earlier, my experimental ‘Blue Hive’ is based on Mellifera’s Golden Hive but my frames are 11 inches wide by 18 inches deep.which is the widest that will fit in a normal 4-frame tangential extractor - my pic showed one of my frames after extraction . This is narrower than de Layens, yes, but all hive designs are compromises - Mellifera have to scrape off and sieve the honey from their frames, which I don’t believe is a practical way of working.
`
A Layens frame is 13x16 inches deep, with comb area of 181.3 sq inches. My Dartington frame is 11x 18 inches but has no bottom bar so the comb area is 176.8 sq inches, only 2.4% smaller than a Layens. The total area in ten Dartingtons are therefore only smaller than ten Layens by a quarter of one frame - which I am hoping is not significant.

The comb in a Dartington frame is 10.25 wide by 17.25 deep, so depth to width ratio is 17.25/10.25= 1.7
This has to be compared to a 14x12 with a bee space then a shallow 14x5.5 - so 14x 17.8 inches, depth to width ratio = 1.3.

At risk of getting myself deeper into trouble. I will add that I put honeyboxes over the extra-deep frames in my Blue hive - whereas Georges de Layens stored honey only on line. Adding drawn-out shallow frames restricts the need for online frames to not more than say 8 - and adds extra store space immediately when the summer main flow from brambles starts in July - if the bees have to draw out fresh extra-deep online frames, the crop can be missed.

The experimental Blue Hive is narrow and although the DLD honeyboxes fit, they overlap and the roof does not go over. So my preferred extra deep hive is a DLD deepened by adding a 5 7/8ths top extension, then narrowed internally by adding 25mm insulation plus 12mm ply to each inner face . I have about a dozen previously loved DLD’s, donated by elderly beekeepers who accepted their fate of growing older, after I said I would like to start a loan scheme. Only one has been booked so far, as of course few UK beekeepers see need to go beyond the well-established National.

I have yet to see the maximise size of the brood nest in any form of Blue Hive, and how that compares with a DLD with honeyboxes and a Deep National with supers. . Bring on next spring!

 

[fian]

As said earlier, my experimental ‘Blue Hive’ is based on Mellifera’s Golden Hive but my frames are 11 inches wide by 18 inches deep.which is the widest that will fit in a normal 4-frame tangential extractor - my pic showed one of my frames after extraction . This is narrower than de Layens, yes, but all hive designs are compromises - Mellifera have to scrape off and sieve the honey from their frames, which I don’t believe is a practical way of working.
`
A Layens frame is 13x16 inches deep, with comb area of 181.3 sq inches. My Dartington frame is 11x 18 inches but has no bottom bar so the comb area is 176.8 sq inches, only 2.4% smaller than a Layens. The total area in ten Dartingtons are therefore only smaller than ten Layens by a quarter of one frame - which I am hoping is not significant.

The comb in a Dartington frame is 10.25 wide by 17.25 deep, so depth to width ratio is 17.25/10.25= 1.7
This has to be compared to a 14x12 with a bee space then a shallow 14x5.5 - so 14x 17.8 inches, depth to width ratio = 1.3.

At risk of getting myself deeper into trouble. I will add that I put honeyboxes over the extra-deep frames in my Blue hive - whereas Georges de Layens stored honey only on line. Adding drawn-out shallow frames restricts the need for online frames to not more than say 8 - and adds extra store space immediately when the summer main flow from brambles starts in July - if the bees have to draw out fresh extra-deep online frames, the crop can be missed.

The experimental Blue Hive is narrow and although the DLD honeyboxes fit, they overlap and the roof does not go over. So my preferred extra deep hive is a DLD deepened by adding a 5 7/8ths top extension, then narrowed internally by adding 25mm insulation plus 12mm ply to each inner face . I have about a dozen previously loved DLD’s, donated by elderly beekeepers who accepted their fate of growing older, after I said I would like to start a loan scheme. Only one has been booked so far, as of course few UK beekeepers see need to go beyond the well-established National.

I have yet to see the maximise size of the brood nest in any form of Blue Hive, and how that compares with a DLD with honeyboxes and a Deep National with supers. . Bring on next spring!

You have not understood my question, I was referring to the height of the hanging honeycomb in the photo, it looks quite square.
On the other hand, a layens frame is 310 long x 370 wide (a little more than 12" and a little less than 15").
I also told you that in its original format there were 24 frames separated by 35mm and the DLD carries 22. The similarities are too great to discard what was prior to 1920.

 

[blackcloud]

Without bottom bars is flexing the frame an issue ?(careful handling of course)
I use 14/8 Nationals exclusively but I know from my own bait hive designs that narrow deep cavities are preferred by the local feral colonies.
Peak swarm season when the hives are on double brood I find the nest is often diamond shaped rather than spherical.

 

[rdartington]

I had never heard of or seen the golden hive or the DLD. I have searched the internet for information. The truth is that this configuration is not new. George de Layens developed something similar back in 1874. This development is still being used in the Mediterranean area from Marseille to Seville.
It was a horizontal hive of 24 frames of 310×370mm (just over 12"x14") in its original version.
A short version (12 frames) is currently used and 1/2 and 1/3 frames have become popular for supers. There is even a dadant/layens double configuration boost.
In France it was modernized to a vertical beehive of 9 frames with a rise of 1/2 or three bodies of 1/2 (Pastorale)

Asolutely true - it is said there are a million De Layens hives in southern France and Spain - and Thorne’s now sell in UK for 360 UK pounds without supers.
I always say that ‘New Beekeeping’ , my system using DLD hives, is a new presentation of old ideas, not an introduction of new ideas - everything has been done before in beekeeping if you search hard enough, but not always in the safest and most economic and convenient way.
Layens hives have however only influenced beekeeping in UK since a translation of his book was published in 2017, 120 years after publication in French.
Will they catch on in UK? - I doubt it. All hive designs are an expression of local culture. They suit the climate and so the forage locally available - and also local materials. Consequently, southern France and Spain has the de Layens, the US has the Langstroth for migratory beekeeping, UK the National for hobby beekeeping, Ukraine its own long hive for mixed farming, Egypt long horizontal clay pipes as there are no tree cavities, Africa top-bar hives to throw off the heat. Materials/manufactures have a kimitig effect - the Layers frame requires a large diameter extractor, the most common in UK will only take a frame top bar of 13 inches, hence my Blue Hive using that frame size.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Without bottom bars is flexing the frame an issue ?

never found that in frames I've used in bait hives - I've also found that in all of them, the bees have attached the comb all the way down the side bars

 

[blackcloud]

So the bamboo skewer thing isnt really needed?
Ive put it in super frames in case I crank the konigin up to eleven .

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So the bamboo skewer thing isnt really needed?
Ive put it in super frames in case I crank the konigin up to eleven .

Quite a few of my shallow frames have unwired thin foundation, I've treated them no different when extracting - haven't had one blow on me yet

 

[blackcloud]

haven't had one blow on me yet

easy, tiger.
The only honey frames that popped last time were wired so I would probably try a few more F/L this year

 

[rdartington]

Aghhh but it’s Satans box, and it’s sole use would prevent others from reinventing other…..boxes!

Luckily, sole use of the National box has not happened. It was the box of its time, 1920 - at the time, beekeepers were not taking their WBC hives to orchards for pollination - but Bro Adam did take Buckfast WBC’s up to the heather in a wheel barrow - but he was young and a tough German. Then he converted to single walled hives. And the introduction of the single walled National made limited travelling to Kent orchards more reasonable.
Now that Kent apple growers have local hives for pollination - or so I assume - the whole of UK can settle back and keep bees locally.
Is the moveable National the best for home hobby beekeeping?
In view of the fact that a National hive needs backing up with a second hive or at least a nuc hive for swarmcontrol.
Or do Nat users just let the swarms fly?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Or do Nat users just let the swarms fly?

Is there much difference between a long deep hive divided for swarm management and two separate hives?

 

[pargyle]

Luckily, sole use of the National box has not happened. It was the box of its time, 1920 - at the time, beekeepers were not taking their WBC hives to orchards for pollination - but Bro Adam did take Buckfast WBC’s up to the heather in a wheel barrow - but he was young and a tough German. Then he converted to single walled hives. And the introduction of the single walled National made limited travelling to Kent orchards more reasonable.
Now that Kent apple growers have local hives for pollination - or so I assume - the whole of UK can settle back and keep bees locally.
Is the moveable National the best for home hobby beekeeping?
In view of the fact that a National hive needs backing up with a second hive or at least a nuc hive for swarmcontrol.
Or do Nat users just let the swarms fly?

Fewer and fewer orchards in Kent these days - the BFA do encourage members to offer honeybees for pollination but increasingly growers are buying in bumble bees for pollination.

The vast majority of people that I know with standard nationals practice a variety of swarm control methods which nearly all require a second set of kit. Even with my 14 x 12's and modern prolific bees my colonies will often make swarm preps. A lot of members on here pre-empt swarming with Demarees - a method which is very successful and provides opportunities to either make increase or recombine.

There are a few whose colonies are allowed to swarm ... but it's a fairly antisocial practice and as many bees are kept in urban locations will not endear the beekeeper to the local population.

 

[pargyle]

Is there much difference between a long deep hive divided for swarm management and two separate hives?

Not in terms of the outcome but it's very easy to split a colony in an LDH and this, if done, prior to actual swarm preps being noticed is a good way of reducing the likelihood of the bees swarming. Bear in mind LDH do have a propensity for producing big colonies but the amount of lateral space available for expansion seems to discourage swarming to some extent (or at least that has been my experience with my LDH).