Hived swarm aftercare / Why select unsealed and not sealed QC when culling?

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ksjs

House Bee
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
195
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Location
North Wales
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
3
I've had a brief look on here and my bee book library but couldn't find an answer: I've just hived a swarm and they are happily in a nuc. The frames in the nuc are already drawn and the swarm pretty much fills the nuc (4 seams of bees). I've given them some syrup despite good weather and fact that frames are drawn as I have it in my mind that this may help make them more likely to stay but I've probably made that up. Anyway, my questions are:

- how long after hiving them can I / should I inspect (my concern is to make sure there's a queen in there and that they have sufficient space and are bringing in stores)?

- when should I transfer them to a larger hive keeping in mind that they're already looking pretty cramped? Also of note here is that they were hived in a national sitting within a few feet of a nuc that never got going this year as the queen was lost. They then took it upon themselves to move into the very same nuc! That happened yesterday so I can only assume there's a reason they're there, they've moved.

Now, down to queen cells... So, following the swarm (which left my strongest colony) I went through the BB and discovered 6 queen cells and 2 play cups. 4 of the QC were sealed and 1 of the play cups had jelly and a tiny larvae. I removed the play cups and culled the 4 sealed QCs and in theory am only left with the 2 unsealed QCs.

On reflection I'm questioning why I culled the sealed QCs. I suppose it's a question of the literature suggesting that this is what you should do. Also, it gives you a much better idea of when a subsequent swarm may happen i.e. you can hopefully control this better.

I realise that through prior inspections I should still be able to date the sealed QCs but my last inspection before yesterday's and before the swarm was Tue 28th and I can only assume I missed play cups that then became QCs - they were in prominent positions however so I'm unsure what I did / didn't do.

For next time I'm wondering why not select sealed QCs rather than unsealed: these are further on so there's less chance of them being damaged / dying and you'd have less time without a queen so less lag in the hive producing workers. What is the accepted wisdom on selecting QCs, am I wrong in suggesting that retaining unsealed QCs is the 'standard' method?

Thanks in advance.
 
I was reading about the choice of QCs to leave yesterday as it happens. Some people say that you don't know the health of of the grub/pupa in the sealed QC so cannot see if it has been damaged/detached etc, therefore if you choose an unsealed QC you can see that it is ok.

The article I read said that this wasn't really necessary, unless you suspect the sealed QC may be damaged, and by leaving the capped cell you will have a laying queen a few days earlier.

So, basically, it is the same reason as some suggest leaving 2 QCs - for insurance, but given the fact both my hives wanted to cast when I left 2 QCs, I am going back to culling all but one, sealed, QC!
 
This very day I removed a sealed queen cell, that looked for all the world like a prime contender...... except there was nothing in it at all. In a nutshell, that's why unsealed is advised, or one of the main reasons, at least.
 
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After care 4 seems bees.....

It is better to join now to main hive. 4 seems bees is too small as a hive. It takes too much time that becomes something.

In joining it is better to leave new ,laying queen after mating.

Sealed not not? sealed may be one week older and you get a laying queen sooner.
The whole process queen cell rearing and mating and laying is a long process. In minimum 3 weeks.
Then it takes 4 weeks that you get new bees to the hive. It is almost August then.
 
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Thanks all for replies. What about when I can inspect the hived swarm?
 
Anyone - when can I inspect, when should I re-hive into a bigger hive (given that they selected the nuc instead of a national)?
 
ksjs Another reason for leaving an unsealed queen cell is because sometimes bees will re-seal a cell from which a queen has already emerged and you will not know it is empty.
 
Anyone - when can I inspect, when should I re-hive into a bigger hive (given that they selected the nuc instead of a national)?

Why are you inspecting gives you the answer, if you are inspecting for eggs then providing it is a laying queen and there is drawn foundation then after a few days, if one or both of those don't apply then leave it until they will. What else could you be inspecting for? If it is just to put your mind at rest that the bees are still in there then......don't!
 
Anyone - when can I inspect, when should I re-hive into a bigger hive (given that they selected the nuc instead of a national)?

Rehive when they have started to draw out all the frames in the nuc
E
 
This very day I removed a sealed queen cell, that looked for all the world like a prime contender...... except there was nothing in it at all. In a nutshell, that's why unsealed is advised, or one of the main reasons, at least.

Why do bees sometimes feed and seal an empty queen cell?
 
Rehive when they have started to draw out all the frames in the nuc
E

Which, if you are feeding them and the conditions are as good for the next few days (warm, flying weather with plenty of forage) won't be long ... my swarm drew out four and a half frames of foundation in a week .. without any feeding. There were about 20% cells filled with either nectar or pollen - HM may be a virgin as there were no eggs. They went into the new hive on the seventh day with just one drawn out frame and three foundationless frames with starter strips and I've dummied them down to four frames to start with and they've got a feeder on there with 1:1.

So ... I reckon you could re-hive whenever it suits you but dummy them down and continue to feed for another week until they have really got going.
 
There is something amiss here.

A prime swarm will normally only just fit a nuc, or will be too big for it.

So, is it a prime or is it a cast? If, as you say there are developng larvae in the parent colony it must be a prime - if you are sure it came from that hive.

As to the queen cell(s) to select, Galileo is right on the money. Go for the advice from beeks that have actually done it.

So to the moving. You answered your own question in the question? You used the word 'cramped'. They do not necessarily need to have a full quota of frames in a full sized hive - that is one use for a dummy.

Feed should be witheld for three days unless you know the state of health of the colony.

However having no wax to draw (by giving them drawn frames) will mean they will have immediately filled some cells with honey. Shot yourself in the foot unless you are sure of their origin or health. In good foraging weather natural swarms likely have no wax at all to start with, and have to get their own forage, too, so you may consider your feeding them as 'overkill'. Probably won't do much harm, though; just needs thinking about.

Swarms don't happen without queen(s). You can be fairly sure of that.

You should not need to inspect to see if they are bringing in forage - look at the weather and your surroundings! Also bees flying to, and from, the hive are not just going for an orientation flight; they don't go out without purpose.

Play cups do not have royal jelly and a developing larva in them, btw!

I realise that through prior inspections I should still be able to date the sealed QCs

You won't if the last was so long ago. Try the tiny larva - the date for the last egg laying would be fairly indicative, as would the actual swarming time with reference to sealed queen cells (given good weather).


If it is a prime swarm the queen will likely be laying within three days - but what would you do if there were no eggs? That's right - nothing. So why disturb them just for that?
 
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Why are you inspecting gives you the answer
I am inspecting because I am concerned there isn't enough space and that this will prompt a swarm (given that they have just swarmed though this would seem extreme).

I am assuming there is a laying queen and I know that all frames are drawn already (they were before the swarm went into the nuc).
 
I reckon you could re-hive whenever it suits you but dummy them down and continue to feed for another week until they have really got going.

Why re-hive only to dummy down - seems contradictory?
 
C'mon! think here!

You have already stated they are cramped on five (presumably) frames.

A full hive can be twelve frames. I think there is a slight difference between six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or twelve frames. You may not, of course, recognise the difference in numbers, but that is life!
 
So, is it a prime or is it a cast? If, as you say there are developng larvae in the parent colony it must be a prime - if you are sure it came from that hive.

I am 99.99% sure of the colony it came from (no queen at last inspection and 6 QC) and I am 99.99% sure it was a prime swarm albeit a small one (still a good number of bees in parent colony and they're not overflowing in the nuc).


So to the moving. You answered your own question in the question? You used the word 'cramped'. They do not necessarily need to have a full quota of frames in a full sized hive - that is one use for a dummy.

Makes sense but they chose to go into the nuc (from the national they were originally placed in). I will re-hive today and dummy down to 8 frames. When I think about the dummying down it confuses me a bit: what is the difference between having the dummy or not, surely they can just ignore the 'extra' frames if there are 11 frames in the box, surely they can just get into the void created by a dummy and discover the extra space and be unhappy about it / want to build comb?

Feed should be witheld for three days unless you know the state of health of the colony.

Why? I'm pretty sure I've read in several places that a swarm should be fed asap.

However having no wax to draw (by giving them drawn frames) will mean they will have immediately filled some cells with honey. Shot yourself in the foot unless you are sure of their origin or health. In good foraging weather natural swarms likely have no wax at all to start with, and have to get their own forage, too, so you may consider your feeding them as 'overkill'. Probably won't do much harm, though; just needs thinking about.

I don't see how I shot myself in the foot - I can see no harm from providing the syrup regardless of the swarm's origin?

You should not need to inspect to see if they are bringing in forage - look at the weather and your surroundings! Also bees flying to, and from, the hive are not just going for an orientation flight; they don't go out without purpose.

They seem very active and happy and are bringing lots of pollen in, no idea on forage as haven't inspected.

Play cups do not have royal jelly and a developing larva in them, btw!

I guess I'm confused about when a play cup becomes a QC, is it simply the contents rather than the structure?

I realise that through prior inspections I should still be able to date the sealed QCs.

You won't if the last was so long ago. Try the tiny larva - the date for the last egg laying would be fairly indicative, as would the actual swarming time with reference to sealed queen cells (given good weather).

They swarmed Mon last and on the inspection on Wed the eggs were 2-3 days old - that ties in. My point on dating the QCs was that once they're sealed you can't say when they were made if you didn't note their appearance during the initial stages of QC building.

If it is a prime swarm the queen will likely be laying within three days - but what would you do if there were no eggs? That's right - nothing. So why disturb them just for that?

I'd 'disturb' them to check on space. Is that not reason enough?

Really good post - lots to think about and much appreciated. Thank you!
 
C'mon! think here!

You have already stated they are cramped on five (presumably) frames.

A full hive can be twelve frames. I think there is a slight difference between six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or twelve frames. You may not, of course, recognise the difference in numbers, but that is life!

I'm being very black and white here (as is often th in the nuc. My query (mentioned in my reply to you) still stands: what about the void and that being 'discovered'?

Also, does a swarm not just want some time to settle, surely shifting them around makes them think they've found a pretty rubbish new home?
 
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It is better to join now to main hive. 4 seems bees is too small as a hive. It takes too much time that becomes something.

I'd like to go into winter with 3 colonies and fingers crossed for a good spring and no swarms next year and I can actually get a decent amount of honey. Looks like I'm on for a small but first crop of honey this year - have had a taste and it's amazing!

They have a laying queen (I hope) right now so new workers in about 2 weeks and we have late forage on balsam and heather.

Going to keep them as they are and see how things go.
 
ksjs,

Just to try to fill in some gaps:

Swarm : feeding/not feeding. The orthodoxy is that the honey which the bees have brought with them may be diseased. By not feeding the swarm on arrival, they will use the honey store in their stomachs to build comb, to get the brood going. Any contaminents will then be neutralised in the wax, rather than finding its way into the food for the new brood (which may infect them, too). Once 3 of 4 days have passed since the swarm issued, you could then decide to feed them, if required.

Dummying : I've never had a problem with "comb in the void", but you could always fill with insulation, if that worried you - and take it out as the brood-nest expands.


Moving a swarm: You get one chance to move the swarm to its desired location (swarming allows the bees to "reset" their mind-maps), which is the move you make when you bring it to your apiary. if the hive is now where you want it - that's great....

Good luck with the honey this year...and next !
 
Thanks djg for explaining those points.

I will now address the other points in that last postings.

I am 99.99% sure I'm not. And definitely not if there were no brood after, say, four days.

When I think about the dummying down it confuses me a bit I actually use dividers, but the term often confuses inexperienced beeks.

I'm pretty sure I've read in several places that a swarm should be fed asap.

I'm pretty sure you haven't or you need to improve your choice of reading material. I am absolutely sure I have read about not feeding a swarm for the first three days.

They seem very active and happy and are bringing lots of pollen in, no idea on forage as haven't inspected. Excuse me, but what is pollen if it's not forage? Were all the returning bees carrying pollen, and if not what would you think they were doing?

I guess I'm confused Correct, you are.

My point on dating the QCs was that once they're sealed you can't say when they were made if you didn't note their appearance during the initial stages of QC building. Very simple, they likely swarmed when the first was capped. They do not normally swarm before and only 'some time afterwards' if the weather is inclement.

I'd 'disturb' them to check on space. Is that not reason enough?

C'mon, you had already stated they were cramped. How many times do you need to check?

On June 6th you wrote: I've just hived a swarm Now we find out that it would appear to have swarmed on the June 2nd. Times are important information and it only likely misleads if they are not as indicated.

Also, does a swarm not just want some time to settle, surely shifting them around makes them think they've found a pretty rubbish new home? I did not suggest that at all. All I said was to give them more spacious accommodation. Just like hiving a newly purchased nucleus colony.

I've now spent far too much time on this thread. I'll now leave you to consider all the missed observations and go and look to see who else needs help.
 

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