Hive split without finding Queen.

[JC47]

I have a hive that is bursting with bees and at present has four frames of sealed brood. I would like to do a split but after searching for the past five weeks have been unable to find the Queen. It may be she is jumping of the frames onto the floor or just being hidden by the workers.
I have read in the BBKA news that by placing a brood box above a queen excluder and putting frames of eggs , larva and sealed brood in it , minus bees, that nurse bees will move up the hive to these frames thus permitting a split to be made.
Has any Forum member tried this method ?

 

[ericbeaumont]

have been unable to find the Queen

What technique have you used to find her?

Don't smoke the colony, or if you must, a little at or under the entrance, to keep her up on the combs.

Use a couple of nuc boxes and transfer pairs of frames into them, checking as you go; pair the remaining frames in the BB. Aim to leave a good gap between pairs: queen prefers the dark between the frames and is less likely to leave and cross the gap.

Go quietly through the pairs; as you remove the first, check to see if she runs down the face of the other comb.

Cast your eyes casually around the edge of the frame in your hand because she may scarper to the darker side. Scan lazily but in an organised way - like a tractor in a field - and allow your eyes to notice anything unusual, but do not look for the queen.

Books say she is more likely to be found on open brood, but the reality is she could be anywhere.

Go through the pairs again, then leave them while you have a cup of tea. Having given them (and yourself) a chance to settle, pay attention to the bees' activity: running around or calm? Queen is likely to be where there is less action.

Into another nuc or BB park the remaining frames from the BB. Take the box off the floor gently and examine the rebates at the base, then the floor.

You will find her.

 

[JC47]

I have tried all your suggestions, I know there is a Queen because of the eggs but now feel it is time to give it up as a bad job finding her. In my 8 years of beekeeping I have never had this problem before, may be its old age but my wife has also been unsuccessful.
I wondered if any other member has tried this method of splitting a hive ?

 

[Michael Palmer]

I have read in the BBKA news that by placing a brood box above a queen excluder and putting frames of eggs , larva and sealed brood in it , minus bees, that nurse bees will move up the hive to these frames thus permitting a split to be made.
Has any Forum member tried this method ?

Yes, thousands of times over almost 50 years. The Doolittle method...G.M. Doolittle. Best method for accuracy and speed.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I would like to do a split

This is a sub-optimal time to be making a split for two reasons: wasps are becoming a threat and will predate weak - especially Q- colonies - and drone eviction is approaching.

Far better to take one strong colony into winter than two weaker, and to split at the height of next season.

If I were to split now, a better plan would be to park the queen in a nuc and allow the main colony to make EQCs.

This would allow both halves to defend adequately: the nuc is Q+ and strong, and though the colony is Q-, it has all the defensive flyers, not just nurse bees as your plan suggests.

 

[JC47]

Thank you for your advice it is possibly too late.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a hive that is bursting with bees and at present has four frames of sealed brood. I would like to do a split

Four frames of brood is certainly not a hive 'bursting with bees' In fact, it's not really a nuc 'bursting with bees' splitting that at this time of the year is a surefire way of having two totally mediocre colonies going in to the winter

Thank you for your advice it is possibly too late

Or a lot too early really

 

[Curly green finger's]

I

Four frames of brood is certainly not a hive 'bursting with bees' In fact, it's not really a nuc 'bursting with bees' splitting that at this time of the year is a surefire way of having two totally mediocre colonies going in to the winter

Or a lot too early really

I agree, I’m splitting double brood in half anything with less than 12 frames of brood I will let alone untill next year.
Single brood I would want 6 frames minimum.

 

[blackcloud]

A simple means of finding a queen is not to look for her....

 

[Redcap]

What technique have you used to find her?

Don't smoke the colony, or if you must, a little at or under the entrance, to keep her up on the combs.

Use a couple of nuc boxes and transfer pairs of frames into them, checking as you go; pair the remaining frames in the BB. Aim to leave a good gap between pairs: queen prefers the dark between the frames and is less likely to leave and cross the gap.

Go quietly through the pairs; as you remove the first, check to see if she runs down the face of the other comb.

Cast your eyes casually around the edge of the frame in your hand because she may scarper to the darker side. Scan lazily but in an organised way - like a tractor in a field - and allow your eyes to notice anything unusual, but do not look for the queen.

Books say she is more likely to be found on open brood, but the reality is she could be anywhere.

Go through the pairs again, then leave them while you have a cup of tea. Having given them (and yourself) a chance to settle, pay attention to the bees' activity: running around or calm? Queen is likely to be where there is less action.

Into another nuc or BB park the remaining frames from the BB. Take the box off the floor gently and examine the rebates at the base, then the floor.

You will find her.

Nicely explained

 

[Hachi]

Thank you for your advice it is possibly too late.

A bit of a cryptic answer. You asked for advice that was given within two hours [pretty quick for a forum on a week day].

What have you done????

 

[JC47]

Thank you for the replies, however the question was not about how to find a Queen, it was if the method of splitting the hive worked. It would be appreciated if timing of using this method could be given by a Forum member who has used the technique.

 

[ericbeaumont]

cryptic answer.

I guess John meant two things: thanks for the advice and that it's possibly too late (to split).

 

[ericbeaumont]

timing of using this method

The method will work but the timing is sub-optimal, as is any method of splitting a single-box colony at the ***-end of a season.

Why are you keen to split now?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why are you keen to split now?

I thought the BBKA had made it compulsory