Highland black bees not wild enough to be saved

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I think that as Linnaeus was trying to apply some sort of order to the natural world around him that it is very logical that he would name specimens found in the immediate neighbourhood, .

Many have tried to classify nature before Linnaeus but did not succeeded.

Like escimos, they have only one clas to plants, and it is "flower". For snow they had 28 classes with which they informed important thigs to each other.

Classification is an essential basic of human communication. It means not to put things in order.

http://atbi.eu/summerschool/files/summerschool/Manktelow_Syllabus.pdf

"In the Eastern world, one of the earliest pharmacopoeias was written by Shen Nung, Emperor of
China around 3000 BC (Fig. 1). He was a legendary emperor known as the Father of Chinese
medicine and is believed to have introduced acupuncture. He wanted to educate his people in
agriculture and medicine and is said to have tasted hundreds of herbs to test their medicinal value.
The pharmacopoeia Divine Husbandman's".


.
 
Last edited:
Gavin, you misunderstood the meaning. I didn't say that they should or should not be moved anywhere ....

Then I apologise for my tone.

I do understand that Buckfast is a breed (and indeed a set of different lines) rather than a natural race or subspecies and that continual improvment is called for. But the Amm thing is about heritage as well as adaptation. It is the right bee for the Western fringes of Europe and it is - when selected for this - gentle and productive.

The bees I've kept have been of various types, including a Buckfast line. It is interesting to see the differences in the response of different types to different challenges and most fail some of the challenges.

Just to clarify, you can assume that Colonsay is free of Varroa. Given that the island has had no bees from the mainland for all that time, there is no reason why it should, and Mr Abrahams would have known by now if they were there. Mull is also free, as are some isolated areas along the western coast and islands and Orkney. What is really disappointing though is the continuing movement of bees from Varroa-infested areas into previously untouched areas. Lewis this summer, the Ullapool area the previous one. My first argument on here was with a bee trader in S England who ended up boasting of the diverse isolated places his bees (and his Varroa) have gone to - spreading both Varroa and exotic genetics into areas hitherto Varroa-free and probably mostly pure Amm.

Can the Varroa-free argument be used to persuade the authorities to prevent movement of bees? It has been tried, but it doesn't work when the presumption is free movement and free trade. No, the existence of a reserve for native bee stocks is a better argument. But there are big gaps in our knowledge - the existence of other pockets, the purity compared with other stocks kept by beekeepers elsewhere who believe that they have Amm.

OK, I can't be sure that Nosema ceranae is absent there, but it still seems an open question whether it is a recent invader. Like so many bee pathogens, we don't realise that they are there until after we've moved them from country to country.

all the best

Gavin
 
According DNA mapping black bee came later to Europe than other races. Their birth place is in Africa and black bee came in second wave via Spain.

Nice map Finman. However I don't think that there was an early and late migration - just two different lineages, the eastern one that gave carnica, caucasia, ligustica, and the western one that took dark bees into Spain, France, the UK and Ireland, and Scandinavia.

The full paper is here:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/314/5799/642

cheers

Gavin
 
However I don't think that there was an early and late migration - just two different lineages,n


Before genemapping it was thought that mellifera mellifera is the oldest European bee race and Ice Ace isolated mellifera and ceranae to distint cspecies. From Europe honeybee moved to Africa.

Gemapping showed that it is controversy. Mapping tells that dark bee is more close to A. scutellata than western races. Scutellata is more near to western races than dark bee to western races.

That suppose that dark bee got a branch later from scurellata than western line.

In Africanized bees they have found that after 30 years crossing western line genes have disaperared and cutellata genes have taken their place. Strange is that dark bee's genes are still in africanized bees and they are as strong with scutellata genes.

**********

What ever, if I find a lonely beekeeper somewhere, I don't think that he has some special genes in his hives.

***********

About varroa . We have on Polar Circle area beeyards which never has had varroa. They are so isolated. We have a large Arcrhipelago between Sweden and Finland and it has no varroa because beekeepers have destroyed all varroa hives.

*********

It is an adult dream that at once comes from somewhere somettimes a sudden salvador which resolves problems of beekeeping. All 60 years of selecting and breeding of bees is vain because the resolution was out there.

You just find it. But a hint, it is on island.

ERIK OSTERLUND found it on mountains http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/erik-osterlund/the-elgon-bee-and-varroa-mites/
Problem is than crossed with other races Elgon bee become quite mad.
It gets its original wild features back. Elgon has African Monticola genes.
 
Then I apologise for my tone.

Just to clarify, you can assume that Colonsay is free of Varroa. Given that the island has had no bees from the mainland for all that time, there is no reason why it should, and Mr Abrahams would have known by now if they were there. Mull is also free, as are some isolated areas along the western coast and islands and Orkney. What is really disappointing though is the continuing movement of bees from Varroa-infested areas into previously untouched areas. Lewis this summer, the Ullapool area the previous one. Can the Varroa-free argument be used to persuade the authorities to prevent movement of bees? It has been tried, but it doesn't work when the presumption is free movement and free trade. No, the existence of a reserve for native bee stocks is a better argument. But there are big gaps in our knowledge - the existence of other pockets, the purity compared with other stocks kept by beekeepers elsewhere who believe that they have Amm.

Gavin

As vorroa used to be 'reportable or notifiable' I would have thought that an area that was classified as free of the problem would stand a chance of some sort of protection if only by local planning?


I would also question the judgement with regard to species: There are laws to protect wildcats (felis silvestris grampia) which I assume do not extend to their close relation (Felis silvestris catus) the domestic cat and can only assume that the protection afforded to wildcats is as a result of them being wild.
If this is correct, this then poses the question: are bees (Meliffera meliffera (whatever)) wild or domestic? I would suggest that bees are wild (well some I’ve seen are wilder than others :)) and as bee keepers we only provide suitable nest sites and manage and never domesticate them. Surely if my assumptions are correct, those with clout such as BBKA should be fighting in the courts to help preserve the last remaining varroa free colonies, Scotland, Isles of Scilly or wherever?
If this protection could be put in place the race of bee may then be preserved as an indirect result.
 
I would suggest that bees are wild (well some I’ve seen are wilder than others :)) and as bee keepers we only provide suitable nest sites and manage .

In my country wild animals are protected during reproductive season and wild animals are not allowed to capture. Selling wild animals is out of question.

What is animal? bird and mammals and frogs? What about others, are they bugs?

.. Fishing?
.... butterfly collecting

..... fly and moscito killing .......ÄSH!
 
Hello,
First of all I would like to reconfirm that I am 100% for the protection of the bees on Colonsay. You might not like some of the things I will write about – but it is the way I see things.

You can read about Colonsay honey at the following link:
http://www.colonsay.org.uk/honey5.html

The beekeeper on Colonsay should make a very diplomatic approach to any potential beekeeper and ask them not to import any bees and co-operate with him. There are only about 100 people on the island- shouldn’t be hard to do. If this fails then threaten legal action for damages from Varroa. He could also ask the local authorities to pass some sort of regulation requiring a permit from them for any imports. Just some thoughts. Failing all this and if other bees are imported then he could learn AI to keep his strain going.
The UK is signatory to conventions on biodiversity. There is a clause there somewhere that goes something like “Signatory countries will take measures to prevent the deliberate introduction and spread of exotic species”, as we cannot protect the strain because it is not a species, we can however say that the movement of bees from the mainland will help the spread of an exotic species – Varroa. You will have to find the details of the biodiversity convention for yourselves.
It was posted that six colonies were used to set up the population thirty years ago from Bernard Mobus’ Maud strain. I find it very hard to believe that the population is still viable after 30 years of inbreeding on an island –they should have SERIOUS inbreeding problems. Unless…………..
Gavin you know what this strain is, I know what this strain is, but why should this strain is more worthy of protection than any other strain and you will have to convince the decision makers about this. They have no idea at all about the Maud strain.
I agree that AMM can be selected to give a docile productive bee, Galtee proves this beyond doubt, however just because it is the native strain does necessarily mean that it is THE BEST for a given locality. They are great survivors and are time tested but are they the best for today’s beekeepers? The next time you talk to a “large” beekeeper in Scotland, ask him what were the best bees he ever had? It wasn’t AMM. I know the answer before you ask the question but just to make things interesting I ask you to post his answer on this forum.
Best regards
Norton.
 
Hi Norton

Thanks for the link. You are quite right that there are informal ways to help strengthen the exclusion of more bees from the island, but recognition at government level would really help. Maybe your comments on the CBD will help - I'll look into it when I have time.

My understanding was that the Colonsay bees were originally from several different places and that the Maud strain was just part of the set, but I could be wrong.

Murray (also!) calls it as he sees it. My understanding is that he likes the vigour that comes from mixing bees with different backgrounds, and not everything he says about Buckfasts is positive, if that is what you mean. I had a fairly pure Buckfast colony last year myself, and I liked its gentleness, its hygienic nature and its neat brood nest - but it didn't resist Varroa enough for my liking (excavated the little blighters but still didn't keep numbers low so presumably just let them escape) and it had the worst case of chalkbrood I've seen in a long while. Sac brood too.

all the best

Gavin
 
Hello,
Of course Murray likes mixing his bees up - hybrid vigour is a very powerful tool. Do not assume that when I talk about good bees that I'm making a plug for Buckfast or even trying to promote my own bees. He told me that the best strain he ever had was NWC from Cobey and cursed the day when he couldn't get it anymore. I bet he wishes even more now that he could have access to this strain after the recent outbreaks of foulbrood in his area. I have said it in the past, AMM has a real weakness in its susceptibility to brood diseases.
If you do not have already, you should get a copy of Brother Adam's "In search of the best strains of bees" and read about the "Old English Bee" - it is very interesting. He says that this bee was dark brown NOT black. We hear people describing the present AMM in the UK as "British Blacks". Thousands of packages of French black bees were imported into the UK the problems with acarine a century ago. BA also says that even though a thorough search was made to find the OEB after the epidemic that none could be found even in the Outer Hebrides! BA didn't have an alternative agenda to write all this without good reason.
Now back to wiring up some more frames.
Best regards
Norton
(Cyprus: where it was 2C last night and a miserable day outside - much like an average British summer's day!)
 
.
I have kept quite a long time bees, 47 years. I have studied genetics in university.

I have kept same strains about tens years periods, and when I byed new queens, I found how miserable my bee stock was again. It reveals out only if you compare it to another strain.

Many are proud about their "own stock" but my experience is that it will be quite soon spoiled. When I notice that, I start to by every year couple of new queens and I look what they are.

In a small beeyard is impossible to keep good genepool. You take queens from best hives, and next year all queens are sisters and drones are brothers.

When I buy new queen, there is no quarantee, how good they are. You just see it later.

******

Over 20 years ago German Blacks (they were brown) mixed all the time breeding. They were everywhere untill varroa killed them all.

.
 
Last edited:
.
When we had German Blacks 40 years ago, beekeepers talked that they are not "genuine" German Blacks.

Genuine, what they had never seen but they had heard, was such that it did not swarmed, it did not attacked, it was healthy etc. With one word: it was a dream.

Beekeepers have had allways dreams. They carry old farts over bad times.

Varroa free stock in hobbiest yard is one dream. Should we pierce that bubble or encourage that fart in his happines?

Admin has no psychiatrist licence, so he cannot give his opinion.

Nikolai Nebogatov. A Beekeeper. 1875

http://www.russianpaintings.net/articleimg/bogatov/big/bogatov_nikolay_bee_keeper_1875.jpg

.......................
nikolai-bogatov-a-beekeeper-1875.jpg
 
Last edited:
consultation-on-an-Amm-reserve-on-Colonsay

Is a decision closer now ?
 
Last edited:
I'm surprised at this as the Scottish government usually stands up for Scotland.

Are they domesticated?

The Scottish governement is for Edinburgh with perhaps Glasgow. To travel to Colonsay from Edinburgh takes longer than to Brussels or even Berlin or Madrid. Colonsay and its concerns are a remote irrelavence to them.

AMM were here around after the last glaciation as a distinct subspecies. It appears Scottish legislators dont know their Zoology but they probably dont care
 
Last edited:
Received this today and thought it might be of interest and maybe worth discussing?


Without protection, Abrahams fears the future of the native bees, which have lived in Scotland since the last Ice Age and now exist in isolated pockets,

is at risk due to the threat of cross-breeding with other species as well as disease.

since last ice ace.

Bees have evolved in Africa and not on Scottish tundra.

Further more Italian bee race group arrived to Europe earlier than Black Bee.

Nothing in Abraham's claims is correct.

.
 
since last ice ace.

Bees have evolved in Africa and not on Scottish tundra.

Further more Italian bee race group arrived to Europe earlier than Black Bee.

Nothing in Abraham's claims is correct.

.



Don't let facts spoil a story. :sunning:
 
since last ice ace.

Bees have evolved in Africa and not on Scottish tundra.

Further more Italian bee race group arrived to Europe earlier than Black Bee.

Nothing in Abraham's claims is correct.

.
Where the genus APIS evolved is irrelavent. Just because AMM didnt colonise Finland, it doesnt mean you can refute the information that AMM came to the area that would be known as Britain with the decidous forestation after the last glaciation. You dont have much in the way of decidous forests in Finland so how can you talk to us about AMM?
BTW Scotland has it own varieties of native decidous trees.
 
Last edited:
The

AMM were here around after the last glaciation as a distinct subspecies. It appears Scottish legislators dont know their Zoology but they probably dont care

it is vain to talk about A. mellifera and about Ice Age in same sentence.

Andd Scottish native bee!


.
 
it is vain to talk about A. mellifera and about Ice Age in same sentence.

Andd Scottish native bee!


.

Decidous forestation .... it came after the the last glaciation... The bees came with the decidous trees across the land bridge from Europe in the mesolithic.
Species that arrived then are considered native to the Archiepelago .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Britain
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top