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bobba 

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I just started a thread on the above Philip was saying they are illegal?
Just read your thread.

I am assuming you intended to link the fogger, rather than battery.

I did not realize it was a fogger rather than GasVap when I posted the link. But I am sure I can get a GasVap for around tat price point.

Fogging/misting is not an approved application method in the UK, I am guessing that's why Phil says they are illegal.
 

bobba 

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I used to use a pan, and didn't need anything like 4 minutes to vaporise all of the OA, 2 minutes was sufficient. I actually tested it out in the open to see how long it took to vaporise a full dose.
I could also do a full course of 5 vape treatments on all my hives (albeit only 2 hives at the time) without needing to recharge the battery.
So it sounds like if you want to keep using the pan you might want to consider a different power source.

I switched to the GasVap in the end because I find it much quicker and easier to use than the pan vaporisers.

I tested my pan/battery setup in the open and it took about 3m. Then in practice I saw the pan still had a lot of OA left in the 2nd run.

So I retested in the open, this time for 2 runs. I found by the second run the battery was loosing stank and it took longer to vape the OA.

My battery did not have enugh juice for 3 vapes, so I settled on 2 rounds of 4m and tbh its worked ok.

But you sum up my sentiment perfectly in you final sentience. "quicker and easier " - that's what I am looking for.
 

bobba 

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It doesn't need to 'sit' for any amount of time (you're not making a cake :)) I have steel plates which sit on a rail under the OMF, slide pan in, load the Varrox with about 2.5g OA, slide in over the pan a wedge a piece of foam in the gap, all my hives are in pairs so:
once two Varox are in place, connect both to your car battery for two minute 30 seconds
then disconnect the varrox and leave for a further 2 minutes -
the OA will start to sublimate at about 1min15 sec and will continue to sublimate after you turn off the power, the pan will be clear of OA 2 minutes after turning off the power.
You can then immediately remove the varox, dip in cold water to cool to a safe temperature,
you then only need a minute or so to switch the steel pans to the next two hives, refill the varox's (I have little plastic cosmetic pots all pre mearured ready to go) and I'm set for my next blast, so in total, two hives shouldn't take morer than six minutes which includes faffing around time/moving the battery etc.
and by the way - there is no need to fiddle around closing the entrances and shutting the bees in, the original instruction for that was when pushing the varox in from the entrance - you had to block then or risk a mad rush of bees at the entrance being cooked by the hot varrox.

Thanks, some great tips.

I do indeed faf around shutting entrances.

If I do as you say, pull the pan as soon as the OA has vaped. Then reload why its still warm (not hot), I know from testing I can vape 2 at 3m a piece. So I may even be able to get 3 done.

Thanks again for the help as always.

I will try what you have said and see how it goes.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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I think your first step is to get a decent battery with some guts to it, go scrounging at scrapyards or ask a friendly local garage whether they have old swapped out batteries to spare
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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with only four hives, you should manage fine with a decent (not too big) vehicle battery, a varrox and a realistic vaping timescale, maybe it's the pan you're using that's a bit sluggish - where did you get it from?
 

bobba 

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I think your first step is to get a decent battery with some guts to it, go scrounging at scrapyards or ask a friendly local garage whether they have old swapped out batteries to spare
I am going to think on this one. Just dont know if I should bother investing in any more pan kit tbh.

I think I will limp through this year with the kit I have, then look into costs before making a final decision. And see how panning goes with the new system.

I have the panI posted earlier from ebay. Its sold by some guy that makes them himself. I like to support such people, so that played a large factor in my purchasing decision. But you may be onto something. The actual pan on mine looks like its got more metal than yours. Witch probably adds to heat up /cool down time.

That was indeed a good observation, I wouldn't want to try smuggle something past you.

But thanks again for the panning tips, I think I could potentially 1/2 the time it takes.

I am somewhat time poor right now, so especially appreciate any tips that save me time.
 

bobba 

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Vaped 2 hives today with new system.

Took about 15-20m inc all faf - much better.

Also got 48h counts from the other 2 hives, they were about 50 each. So getting there.
 

echidna 

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Vaped 2 hives today with new system.

Took about 15-20m inc all faf - much better.

Also got 48h counts from the other 2 hives, they were about 50 each. So getting there.
That's good - inc speed and dec counts. I hope the numbers keep going in the right direction.
I leave the hives shut up after removing the vape pan, as recommended on the apibioxal instructions, but I go on to the second one while the first one is waiting. When I've vaped that, I can unblock the first one and do the third one etc. I use an electric fence battery and don't have any issues with that running out, provided it isn't nearly flat when I start. (Once that was the case and I ended up with liquid in the pan with no vapourisation.) I already had the battery and charger so I can see it could be seen as expensive if you had to buy one specially (c.£80 for battery without charger).
I have my oxalic acid weighed out in little plastic boxes for each hive and have the vape pan in the hive and connected to the battery for 3mins, as on the apibioxal instructions. With the time closing up and reopening the hive plus a bit of faf as bobba says, it's not too bad. The main hassle is carrying the battery to where the hives are - it's pretty heavy!

After 6 vapes I switched to varromed. I had quite a pile of bees outside one hive after my second varromed treatment. Don't know why as I did the same as the first time and it was only for one hive. I'm reluctant to continue with it but i'm still getting c20 mites per day so I need to do something.
 

bobba 

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That's good - inc speed and dec counts. I hope the numbers keep going in the right direction.
I leave the hives shut up after removing the vape pan, as recommended on the apibioxal instructions, but I go on to the second one while the first one is waiting. When I've vaped that, I can unblock the first one and do the third one etc. I use an electric fence battery and don't have any issues with that running out, provided it isn't nearly flat when I start. (Once that was the case and I ended up with liquid in the pan with no vapourisation.) I already had the battery and charger so I can see it could be seen as expensive if you had to buy one specially (c.£80 for battery without charger).
I have my oxalic acid weighed out in little plastic boxes for each hive and have the vape pan in the hive and connected to the battery for 3mins, as on the apibioxal instructions. With the time closing up and reopening the hive plus a bit of faf as bobba says, it's not too bad. The main hassle is carrying the battery to where the hives are - it's pretty heavy!

After 6 vapes I switched to varromed. I had quite a pile of bees outside one hive after my second varromed treatment. Don't know why as I did the same as the first time and it was only for one hive. I'm reluctant to continue with it but i'm still getting c20 mites per day so I need to do something.
My battery booster thing was about £80. So £80 + a charger is not too bad considering it can vape more than 2 hives. However chargers can get pricey. But I think a good QA traetmnt system is well worth investing in.

I am still a bit undecided about the leaving the door open thing. I have been positioning the pan at the back of the hive so its further from the door. I have seen a little smoke drift out the door, but hopefully not enough to effect the treatment. I have also found my pan still smoking after 75s, so have increased cool-down to 2m. I think JBM is right about my pan.

I have noticed quite a lot of drift on some occasions when blocking the entrance to treat, so leaving it open sorts that out. So if I do go back to door-blocking, I will make a new blocking stick with a tiny entrance. Sometimes on a busy evening a lot can end up below the mesh, so it would help with that too. Its also nice not having to faf around closing the entrances.

So now I am torn between investing in gas vape or new and improved pan setup. And am also considering a Sublimox with a power-bank if that's even practical.

My first results with new method were 2 hives at 48h <10. This has me a little worried they were not treated properly, but may have also been because I pulled the pan why it was still smoking, rather than because I left the door open.
 

bobba 

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Think mine cost about a fiver on ebay - lasted me years thus far
Basic chargers are normally cheap, but when you start adding all the bells and whistles like overcharge protection and cell balancing, the price goes up quickly.

But I may keep an eye on ebay and see if I can snipe a good used one on the cheap. I have plenty of time before next year.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Basic chargers are normally cheap, but when you start adding all the bells and whistles like overcharge protection and cell balancing, the price goes up quickly.
So don't add them then 😁
 

echidna 

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My battery booster thing was about £80. So £80 + a charger is not too bad considering it can vape more than 2 hives. However chargers can get pricey. But I think a good QA traetmnt system is well worth investing in.

I am still a bit undecided about the leaving the door open thing. I have been positioning the pan at the back of the hive so its further from the door. I have seen a little smoke drift out the door, but hopefully not enough to effect the treatment. I have also found my pan still smoking after 75s, so have increased cool-down to 2m. I think JBM is right about my pan.

I have noticed quite a lot of drift on some occasions when blocking the entrance to treat, so leaving it open sorts that out. So if I do go back to door-blocking, I will make a new blocking stick with a tiny entrance. Sometimes on a busy evening a lot can end up below the mesh, so it would help with that too. Its also nice not having to faf around closing the entrances.

So now I am torn between investing in gas vape or new and improved pan setup. And am also considering a Sublimox with a power-bank if that's even practical.

My first results with new method were 2 hives at 48h <10. This has me a little worried they were not treated properly, but may have also been because I pulled the pan why it was still smoking, rather than because I left the door open.
Have just checked and I see my charger cost 65 from alpha batteries. (I can't imagine what you get for 5.) My batteries are 12V 85AH leisure batteries, various budget brands from alpha batteries or tanya. As I said before, I didn't choose them for vaping but I've certainly had no problem doing 4 vapes (haven't tried more without recharging but that's because I use them on the electric fence between sessions). It might well be that you don't have to spend this much to still get something more useful that your current one and I think some other posts have recommended others.

I have the hive totally sealed during vaping. I put the pan in through the reduced entrance and the foam-covered bar attached to the pan stick blocks that. The mesh floor is sealed by sliding in the board that came with the hive. When I remove the pan after vaping, I just put a short thin plank of wood in front of the entrance and hold it in place with a stone for 10mins. That is quick and easy. I don't notice drift, just bees accumulating around the blocked entrance. I do it early in the morning before there's much activity because I'm holding the pan in place while it is connected to the battery (3mins) and I don't want too many bees gathering around me.

Re smoking - my pan comes out charred so I have wondered if any material coming off when I remove the pan after 3mins is actually something burning (which wouldn't matter) rather than oxalic acid which is still sublimating (which would matter). I recently set if off on the patio and watched through the closed patio doors to see what actually happens when the pan is connected. The oxalic acid powder liquified and then bubbled vigorously, turning brown and then leaving a black residue. So the black isn't burnt bees as I had wondered, but I don't know if it is a contaminant of the oxalic acid or if the temperature profile using a cheap vapouriser just isn't right for getting good sublimation.

From a youtube video I learned that the liquifying is due to the water within the oxalic acid dihydrate. If the powder is heated slowly, the water leaves first and then the anhydrous acid sublimates. If it is heated quickly, a liquid forms but I'm not sure how that affects the efficacy of delivering oxalic acid in the way we want. That's partly why I resorted to varromed after 6 vapes. The vaping certainly does something because I see increased mite counts the following day(s), but it might not be as effective as studies with fancier equipment suggest.

That's my experience, which may or may not be helpful. Unfortunately I have killed a lot of mites this way. What I really want is not more effective ways to kill them but a way to not get so many by early August.

Good luck Bobba.
 

Nannysbees 

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Got our battery from a friend who owns a garage and it's a little beaut
 

robmort 

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The black residue is most likely iron oxide formed by reaction of the acid with the steel of the pan.
 

bobba 

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Have just checked and I see my charger cost 65 from alpha batteries. (I can't imagine what you get for 5.) My batteries are 12V 85AH leisure batteries, various budget brands from alpha batteries or tanya. As I said before, I didn't choose them for vaping but I've certainly had no problem doing 4 vapes (haven't tried more without recharging but that's because I use them on the electric fence between sessions). It might well be that you don't have to spend this much to still get something more useful that your current one and I think some other posts have recommended others.

I have the hive totally sealed during vaping. I put the pan in through the reduced entrance and the foam-covered bar attached to the pan stick blocks that. The mesh floor is sealed by sliding in the board that came with the hive. When I remove the pan after vaping, I just put a short thin plank of wood in front of the entrance and hold it in place with a stone for 10mins. That is quick and easy. I don't notice drift, just bees accumulating around the blocked entrance. I do it early in the morning before there's much activity because I'm holding the pan in place while it is connected to the battery (3mins) and I don't want too many bees gathering around me.

Re smoking - my pan comes out charred so I have wondered if any material coming off when I remove the pan after 3mins is actually something burning (which wouldn't matter) rather than oxalic acid which is still sublimating (which would matter). I recently set if off on the patio and watched through the closed patio doors to see what actually happens when the pan is connected. The oxalic acid powder liquified and then bubbled vigorously, turning brown and then leaving a black residue. So the black isn't burnt bees as I had wondered, but I don't know if it is a contaminant of the oxalic acid or if the temperature profile using a cheap vapouriser just isn't right for getting good sublimation.

From a youtube video I learned that the liquifying is due to the water within the oxalic acid dihydrate. If the powder is heated slowly, the water leaves first and then the anhydrous acid sublimates. If it is heated quickly, a liquid forms but I'm not sure how that affects the efficacy of delivering oxalic acid in the way we want. That's partly why I resorted to varromed after 6 vapes. The vaping certainly does something because I see increased mite counts the following day(s), but it might not be as effective as studies with fancier equipment suggest.

That's my experience, which may or may not be helpful. Unfortunately I have killed a lot of mites this way. What I really want is not more effective ways to kill them but a way to not get so many by early August.

Good luck Bobba.

Very interesting reading.

When I ran mine out in the open, it seems to sit thee doing nothing, then it liquefies and evaporates very quickly in a big puff, then a small amount keeps coming off the an pan a while after. My pan often throws out powder onto the board too. So I wonder if my pan does not stay in the sweet spot long and just goes from too cold to too hot.

I made my own bases, they have a small built in ledge/landing board below the entrance so I can easily rest a bit of wood to block.

Then at the back of the stands I have a removable bit of wood so I can get access to insert/remove the board or treat.

So my pan sits no my board but below the mesh.


I got some more results today, The other 2 hives are still at about 50ish and 100ish. And they were treated new way. So that gives me more confidence that treating with door open will not effect the performance.
 

echidna 

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When I ran mine out in the open, it seems to sit thee doing nothing, then it liquefies and evaporates very quickly in a big puff, then a small amount keeps coming off the an pan a while after. My pan often throws out powder onto the board too. So I wonder if my pan does not stay in the sweet spot long and just goes from too cold to too hot.
That's interesting hearing how yours behaves on heating too.
I also get some powder on the board. I interpreted that as material knocked out by the bees before it gets hot. If your pan is below the mesh though, that can't be the case. Mmmmmm.
It does seem that it might be better if they heated up more slowly but as I understand it, the really expensive equipment like sublimox actually preheat and then drop the oxalic acid onto the hot bit so quick heating can't be that bad.
Glad you think your new method is working now.

Repwoc - I used Apibioxal my first year but then switched to generic because I was annoyed that apibioxal came with a use by date once opened whereas the other didn't. I get the black residue with both.

Robmort's suggestion of a reaction between the metal and acid sounds reasonable though I do sometimes get bits of material that have to be scraped off rather than just staining.
 
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