Help, two supercedure cells - do I leave them to fight it out?

[LittleGreyRabbit]

8 May, my hive swarms.
9 May, I remove 38 swarm cells.
12 May, I think I managed an unplanned A/S with one queen from a swarm cell (so I plugged the entrance of the new hive with plant material and will remove it after 48 hours by which time I hope she has forgotten about swarming)C.
13 May, two supercedure cells found - one in main brood box, the other (larger and in a better position on the face of the frame) in the half-brood box.

Do I leave them to fight it out or remove the smaller one in the main brood box, please?

There is loads of honey, capped worker and some capped drone brood.

What I have not yet ruled out is the possibility that the swarm returned to the hive when, after three days, it had not found somewhere else to live. I haven't yet seen the old queen but that is not unusual.

Today I put five new frames of foundation in the main brood box, to replace those taken to the second hive in the A/S. I suppose that one sign that the old queen is still there would be brood laid on the new frames. How long would that take to happen, please?

Sorry, so many questions. Every time I open the hive I find something I didn't expect.

PS: I know this wasn't what is meant by an A/S normally, ie this wasn't old queen, new hive, old site. This was newly emerged queen, new hive, new site, with five frames of brood and stores from the old site. Possibly also including one supercedure cell.

 

[drstitson]

not supercedure cells.

emergency cells. you have no queen and bees have desperately tried to make a couple using whatever material is present for them ie eggs or more likely larvae.

 

[For want of a better word]

Sorry, so many questions. Every time I open the hive I find something I didn't expect.

That SO sums up Beekeepering !!!

Let them get on with it and if in 18 ~23 days you do not see eggs ... put a frame of eggs in from another colony???

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If you had a swarm on the 8th, then chances are they are gone.
Your remaining hive has loads of queencells - some of them emerging.

You have put one virgin in a seperate hive elsewhere. This is not an A/S. She does not need a queencell as well. It's possible that the queencell will be broken down as it's a small colony. It's possible that the queens will fight. It's possible that you'll get a swarm from it leaving the sealed queencell. SO remove the queencell; allow the queen to gather her strength and weather permitting she'll mate.

For the main hive you have loads of queencells. You may find one or more open. If you leave a virgin in there with queencells then she may produce a caste swarm weakening the hive further. You really need an experienced beekeeper to come see. Do you know anyone who can help?

 

[Polyanwood]

I don't know where in London you are LGR. I don't know if you have joined a beekeeping association. If you are in SE London, I will visit. If you have joined the London Beekeeping Association as a beekeeping member, I will see if one of my bee buddies will visit you.

The thing is that the first year of beekeeping is easy, but the second year, when they go inot swarm fever is very tricky indeed.

Karin

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

I don't know where in London you are LGR. I don't know if you have joined a beekeeping association. If you are in SE London, I will visit. If you have joined the London Beekeeping Association as a beekeeping member, I will see if one of my bee buddies will visit you.

The thing is that the first year of beekeeping is easy, but the second year, when they go inot swarm fever is very tricky indeed.

Karin

Thank you for the kind offer, Karin. I gather that you helped one of the other people on my course who had two swarms over last weekend. I haven't yet got around to joining a beekeeping association.

At present, I seem to be at the point where I should leave the first hive closed for three weeks and the second for perhaps two weeks. I hope by then I still have two hives of bees but if not will have to put it down to experience. My mother died recently, and the funeral has not yet taken place, and so I feel as if I have as much on my plate as I can deal with at the moment without intervening more with the bees.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

You have put one virgin in a seperate hive elsewhere. This is not an A/S. She does not need a queencell as well. It's possible that the queencell will be broken down as it's a small colony. It's possible that the queens will fight. It's possible that you'll get a swarm from it leaving the sealed queencell. SO remove the queencell; allow the queen to gather her strength and weather permitting she'll mate.

OK, if we have a warm day I will look in the second hive. The queen cell might just have been an over-sized drone cell. This afternoon, it looked as if some of the brood that was capped when I moved the frames last weekend has hatched: they were coming out in threes, fives and tens, and flying for a couple of seconds "looking at" the hive before flying away over the wall.

For the main hive you have loads of queencells.

No, I have removed all but two, as is suggested in some of the literature. One is in the lower brood box, the other - much better positioned on the face of the frame and larger - is in the upper half-brood box.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If the hive is busy and you have two queencells, then you may well get a caste leaving a much depleted hive. (I personally don't agree with the two queencell literature).

I am sorry to learn of your circumstances. It must be a difficult time for you and you've got a lot to deal with. If you leave the bees for the time-being it's understandable. If they are theraputic (and sometimes they are definitiely not!) then consider what you wish to do with them.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

Small clump of bees under first hive

First noticed this morning, a small clump (slightly larger than a man's fist) of bees on the underside of the inspection board. None "bearding" the front of the hive. Is this perhaps one of the two new queens having been chucked out with a few "loyal" followers?

The second hive now seems to have a working colony (bees coming and going yesterday afternoon). Bees were also coming and going from the first hive yesterday, and they have taken almost all the fondant I gave them a few weeks ago.

Hoping to be able to leave the first hive closed up for another two weeks and the second hive for another week before I inspect to see what has happened since I did the nucleus swarm.

Am now keeping the hens away from the hives - although the first hive is on a 2ft high stand, the clump makes me feel that the bees are too unpredictable at the moment.

Wish they'd settle down.

Thanks.

 

[oliver90owner]

The queen cell might just have been an over-sized drone cell.

Anyone who accepts, as satisfactory, any queen cell that is the size of an over-sized drone cell must expect such the queen to be likely very inferior.

Small queen cells are only a last resort, to get a viable queen to keep the hive from going hopelessly queenless, along with a plan for early replacement of that queen. The odd one may be suitable and make a good queen, but history tells us that it is not usually so.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

The queen cell might just have been an over-sized drone cell.

Anyone who accepts, as satisfactory, any queen cell that is the size of an over-sized drone cell must expect such the queen to be likely very inferior.

Small queen cells are only a last resort, to get a viable queen to keep the hive from going hopelessly queenless, along with a plan for early replacement of that queen. The odd one may be suitable and make a good queen, but history tells us that it is not usually so.

Your de haut en bas lecturing response seems to suggest that you keep forgetting that I am a new to this, being doing it for barely a year, and in fact I didn't get my bees until the end of June last year.

Also, I do work hard at being self-deprecating on Internet forums - not a bumptious newbie know-it-all-already - and when I say that the cell might have been an over-sized drone cell it doesn't mean that it was a drone cell or that I was finding it "satisfactory".