Hefting and winter stores

[Do224]

From what I gather, a hive should feel ‘nailed down’ going into winter. Advice seems to be to heft regularly throughout winter/early spring and feed fondant if necessary.

But by the same token, you don’t want a hive clogged with stores when the queen wants to expand the brood nest in the spring. So, are you supposed to feel the hive lighten progressively throughout winter/early spring hefting?

Or as a beginner is it best to err on the side of caution and make sure the bees always have access to fondant at that time of year?

 

[elainemary]

From what I gather, a hive should feel ‘nailed down’ going into winter. Advice seems to be to heft regularly throughout winter/early spring and feed fondant if necessary.

But by the same token, you don’t want a hive clogged with stores when the queen wants to expand the brood nest in the spring. So, are you supposed to feel the hive lighten progressively throughout winter/early spring hefting?

Or as a beginner is it best to err on the side of caution and make sure the bees always have access to fondant at that time of year?

Up to January my colonies have used just 25% of their stores. None of my colonies have ever starved if left with 18kg stores in Autumn.

The use of stores doesn’t rapidly increase until the queen starts laying again in earnest, timing of this depends on where you are in the country - in the north west usually March.

Just make sure on your last inspection end Sept they have 18kg stores by counting the frames and estimating. Heft once a month afterwards try not to disturb more often however tempting.

If they start to feel light ie the boxes lift up with 2 fingers add fondant. In my experience if you have a good locally adapted bee it’s unlikely you’ll need to feed. Just take out excess stores first spring inspection - usually April sometime when over c11C. Leave 2 full frames behind.

I used to worry like you and be constantly measuring, hefting, adding fondant when they didn’t need it.

Experience comes with the seasons & keeping records as said before.

Next season you might want to measure the weight of an empty hive with the contents excluding the 18kg stores. Then measure with a luggage scale on either side adding together to find the total weight after you’ve done your final inspection and you know they have min 18kg stores.
Subtract one from the other and track the stores by weighing at the end of each month. That way you’ll learn how the stores are used by month and grow in confidence knowing whether they have enough or not

 

[Do224]

Just take out excess stores first spring inspection - usually April sometime when over c11C. Leave 2 full frames behind.

So take out any full frames of stores, leaving two behind…is it ok to replace them with foundation? Will the bees be able to draw out the wax that early in the season…or would I need to replace with drawn comb?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As a beginner, don't try and over complicate things, don't rush in to the hive too soon and when you do, then take stock of what's there before jumping in and shuffling frames around, your first inspection should be no more than a quick look, don't bother chasing for the queen, just see if there is brood, check to see if there still have plenty of stores, as for laying space, at first the equivalent of a frame or two's space should be OK, remember that, unless you have a miraculously early heavy flow, as brood is laid they will be consuming stores to feed them and thus creating more space as remember, the remaining winter bees will be focusing on producing a surplus of new workers rather than piling in stores.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Only then you can think about taking out surplus stores, I usually restrict it to swapping two frames out of every box. No point in taking out all the stores early on if you are just going to replace with foundation as the older bees should not waste their energy and remaining strength building comb when they should be tending brood.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So take out any full frames of stores, leaving two behind…is it ok to replace them with foundation? Will the bees be able to draw out the wax that early in the season…or would I need to replace with drawn comb?

Whatever you do you have drawn frames anyway haven’t you?

 

[Sanntos]

Normally I give 18 kg dry weight sugar just like elainemary. My experience is that any stores will be consumed before or at the flow. I believe the colony has a way to measure the stores. Don't ask me how they do it. But a colony with stores on the plus side seem to build up better and faster.

 

[Do224]

Whatever you do you have drawn frames anyway haven’t you?

Yep I do…still interested to know though…

Plus my drawn frames are half filled with stores themselves so maybe not ideal for this use? Presume they would be better suited to making up nucs

 

[Boston Bees]

From what I gather, a hive should feel ‘nailed down’ going into winter. Advice seems to be to heft regularly throughout winter/early spring and feed fondant if necessary.

But by the same token, you don’t want a hive clogged with stores when the queen wants to expand the brood nest in the spring. So, are you supposed to feel the hive lighten progressively throughout winter/early spring hefting?

Or as a beginner is it best to err on the side of caution and make sure the bees always have access to fondant at that time of year?

Having just got my first luggage weighing scales, I can't believe I haven't done it earlier. £8 from Amazon. So easy, and reassuring, with no intervention required. You can work out the weight of your hive without any food in it, by using spare equipment, or the various posts on this forum that have listed hive weights, and then the difference must be how much food is in there, give or take.

I now wish I had weighed them at the start of the winter, so I could track the difference as winter progressed, but I will do that from now on.

Fondant can cause condensation in some circumstances, so I try to avoid putting it in unless it is actually needed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Plus a generous 5lb for the bees.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/hive-weights.45546/

 

[Do224]

Having just got my first luggage weighing scales, I can't believe I haven't done it earlier. £8 from Amazon. So easy, and reassuring, with no intervention required. You can work out the weight of your hive without any food in it, by using spare equipment, or the various posts on this forum that have listed hive weights, and then the difference must be how much food is in there, give or take.

I now wish I had weighed them at the start of the winter, so I could track the difference as winter progressed, but I will do that from now on.

Fondant can cause condensation in some circumstances, so I try to avoid putting it in unless it is actually needed.

So will you let the weight decrease gradually over the winter I.e. will you have a target weight going into winter and a target weight for coming out the other side in spring?

 

[Sanntos]

... my drawn frames are half filled with stores themselves so maybe not ideal for this use? Presume they would be better suited to making up nucs

They are perfect, and they will move(or use) the stores if you scratch them

 

[elainemary]

Having just got my first luggage weighing scales, I can't believe I haven't done it earlier. £8 from Amazon. So easy, and reassuring, with no intervention required. You can work out the weight of your hive without any food in it, by using spare equipment, or the various posts on this forum that have listed hive weights, and then the difference must be how much food is in there, give or take.

I now wish I had weighed them at the start of the winter, so I could track the difference as winter progressed, but I will do that from now on.

Fondant can cause condensation in some circumstances, so I try to avoid putting it in unless it is actually needed.

I’m tracking mine by month and by hive type (wbc vs polyhive) . I’ll produce some graphs early spring and share.

Last year I started weighing, on average full colonies used 10.5kg or 23lb stores to first quick inspection end March. Season before by eye was v similar.

Think I’ll get to a point in about a seasons or twos time where I have enough knowledge to weigh less, as I’ll know how the bees generally behave, re stores consumption. Though I know I’ll always need to keep an eye on weather factors.

My goal is to get to a point where I’m an intuitive beekeeper and intervene much less, working with, rather than disturbing the bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So will you let the weight decrease gradually over the winter I.e. will you have a target weight going into winter and a target weight for coming out the other side in spring?

I have a target weight of 10lb of stores before I feed in the new season, but still mindful of the weather and what's round the corner. If stores are low yet the willow is just starting there's no point in feeding

 

[Boston Bees]

I have a target weight of 10lb of stores before I feed in the new season, but still mindful of the weather and what's round the corner. If stores are low yet the willow is just starting there's no point in feeding

When you say target weight, you mean that you don't worry about adding fondant (or whatever) in winter/spring unless a hive gets down to 10lb of food, right?

 

[Boston Bees]

So will you let the weight decrease gradually over the winter I.e. will you have a target weight going into winter and a target weight for coming out the other side in spring?

Yes, exactly. I will adopt the "feed to weight" approach in autumn (using syrup or fondant), monitor the declining weight over winter, and not routinely add fondant during winter and early spring unless a hive gets down to a weight of XXkg of stores (yet to be established!)

 

[elainemary]

So will you let the weight decrease gradually over the winter I.e. will you have a target weight going into winter and a target weight for coming out the other side in spring?

The targets I use are 18kg stores to start, i have set a target weight of 6kg to add fondant - last 2 seasons only needed to on 1 colony and they were large, over wintered on double brood.

My thinking on setting the weight is 6 kg = 3 good frames of stores, that’s assuming the colony is doing well ie covering at least 6-7 frames bees. Less than 4 seams bees, i would start thinking whether they have contact with their stores ie maybe add fondant if at one end of the box or the other so they always have contact.

Also I’m currently thinking if they are on less than 5 frames is there something wrong eg queen failure? My colonies won’t be short of stores or have a varroa problem as I make this my top priority, but I can’t influence queen failure other than checking all is ok at my last inspection

Any feedback on my thinking is welcome, positive or improvements

 

[Erichalfbee]

When you say target weight, you mean that you don't worry about adding fondant (or whatever) in winter/spring unless a hive gets down to 10lb of food, right?

Yes

 

[Boston Bees]

Yes

Thanks

10lb seems a pragmatic target. I have a couple of 3-storey nucs that appear to only have 6kg of food (though my weighing calculations might be out), which concerned me, but peeking in the top there are 4+ solid frames of stores in the top box and the bees aren't even visible as they are clearly inhabiting a lower section currently! My weighing must be out though.

 

[Swarm]

The targets I use are 18kg stores to start, i have set a target weight of 6kg to add fondant - last 2 seasons only needed to on 1 colony and they were large, over wintered on double brood.

My thinking on setting the weight is 6 kg = 3 good frames of stores, that’s assuming the colony is doing well ie covering at least 6-7 frames bees. Less than 4 seams bees, i would start thinking whether they have contact with their stores ie maybe add fondant if at one end of the box or the other so they always have contact.

Also I’m currently thinking if they are on less than 5 frames is there something wrong eg queen failure? My colonies won’t be short of stores or have a varroa problem as I make this my top priority, but I can’t influence queen failure other than checking all is ok at my last inspection

Any feedback on my thinking is welcome, positive or improvements

I don't weigh, though I do heft. As you hinted at earlier, knowing your bees and their requirements helps eliminate some of the Winter worry. Mine get 12 pints of invert and whatever they bring in from Ivy and any late Balsam, this is is usually more than adequate. They don't get fondant unless the cold just drags on, like 2013 and 2018. Sometimes need to remove a frame or two of stores but very rarely, the bees seem to manage it well.
Less than five frames, check her progress but don't write her off, I had a queen who had a small cluster every first inspection, certainly less than five frames. They always needed double brood later.
I moved four nucs (two tier) to their new stands today, my wife came along to help. I moved the first on my own and wished I hadn't. So glad she was there