Have you had problems with Vitafeed Gold?

[Amari]

This is my second year using what some regard as snake oil, but I am persuaded by the heavy advertising that claims that it suppresses Nosema.
Today I applied the third dose (100 ml of 10% solution in syrup, alternate days x4 trickled by syringe on to the bees between the frames) to my 7 colonies. However 3 days ago I had inserted a varroa board under one hive and on inspection today noticed several white mangled bits that look like dismembered larvae.
Question: I'm wondering if the VG is trickling down the combs and into the cells and killing the larvae - after all the cells are not horizontal but slightly tilted upwards to prevent the honey escaping.
Last year I suspected that the treatment was putting the queen off laying for a week or so and reported this to the manufacturer who thought it unlikely. Whatever the case all colonies picked up briskly so I ceased worrying.
Does anyone on the forum use VG? Would be good if the NBU would do some controlled trials on these treatments

 

[Meg]

Hi Amari,
I use Vitafeed Gold and have no problems with it re the bees chucking out larvae. It may make them groom more 'though (given it is trickled on in sticky sugar syrup) which may make the bees more conscious of varroa and hence perhaps uncap occupied cells.
By the way, VG is not a treatment, just a supplement hence they can get away with saying what they like. Trials are generally only carried out on medicines.
Meg

 

[Amari]

Reassuring. Thanks

 

[alanf]

...Would be good if the NBU would do some controlled trials on these treatments

Maybe, but that's not their job. Vitafeed Gold or any other proprietary treatment is a commercially secret mix of ingredients. If NBU tested it, the taxpayer would be paying. If it worked , the main beneficiary would be the manufacturers. It would be endorsement of a specific product that they could profit from. The way anything classed as "medicine" works is the manufacturers pay for trials, submit the results, and if the standards are followed the Veterinary Medicines Directorate approve it and put it on the list. Trials and submission involve costs running into tens of thousands, so the prospects have to be there of paying that back. Fundamental requirements then, are that there has to be something protectable (patentable) about the treatment and it has to have the aim of making tens of thousands to pay for approval before it can be a "medicine".

Which leaves treatment with organic acids or readily available essential oils like thymol in a non approved gap. Nobody would pay for approval because there's no profit. There are arguments that generic substances are not produced to medical purity standards. But the financial problem with the approval process for generic substances is that the process designed for the great majority of medicines which are produced by large pharmaceutical companies.

If any commercially produced treatment (short of claiming it was a medicine) was proved not to work, manufacturers could produce a new "improved" formulation and we would be in the same place we are now. We don't know what's in it, we don't know if it works. And the approvals process has the perverse outcome of ensuring we never will.

 

[drex]

Never used VG. Used hive makers recipe in the sticky posts section. Treats Nosema. Costs a few pence. Had no problems. I think all the "snake oils" are ridiculously expensive!

 

[Amari]

Maybe, but that's not their job. Vitafeed Gold or any other proprietary treatment is a commercially secret mix of ingredients. If NBU tested it, the taxpayer would be paying. If it worked , the main beneficiary would be the manufacturers. It would be endorsement of a specific product that they could profit from. The way anything classed as "medicine" works is the manufacturers pay for trials, submit the results, and if the standards are followed the Veterinary Medicines Directorate approve it and put it on the list. Trials and submission involve costs running into tens of thousands, so the prospects have to be there of paying that back. Fundamental requirements then, are that there has to be something protectable (patentable) about the treatment and it has to have the aim of making tens of thousands to pay for approval before it can be a "medicine".

Which leaves treatment with organic acids or readily available essential oils like thymol in a non approved gap. Nobody would pay for approval because there's no profit. There are arguments that generic substances are not produced to medical purity standards. But the financial problem with the approval process for generic substances is that the process designed for the great majority of medicines which are produced by large pharmaceutical companies.

If any commercially produced treatment (short of claiming it was a medicine) was proved not to work, manufacturers could produce a new "improved" formulation and we would be in the same place we are now. We don't know what's in it, we don't know if it works. And the approvals process has the perverse outcome of ensuring we never will.

Well yes, I get your gist.
However I don't see why a more informal comparative trial is not feasible. Gardening Which?, indeed Which? itself compares commercial products e.g. tomato fertilisers, potting compost, mildew treatments etc. But I agree there is no current beekeeping outfit that is likely to have the necessary resources.

 

[Amari]

Never used VG. Used hive makers recipe in the sticky posts section. Treats Nosema. Costs a few pence. Had no problems. I think all the "snake oils" are ridiculously expensive!

Yes Drex, you are of course right. Shame we are no longer are work colleagues. Whenever I reminded you that I have kept bees x10 longer than you, you always managed to deflate my ego most effectively!

 

[itma]

Never used VG. Used hive makers recipe in the sticky posts section. Treats Nosema. Costs a few pence. Had no problems. I think all the "snake oils" are ridiculously expensive!

I have an ongoing problem with that 'stickies' section.

There are actually two distinct "Hivemaker's Thymol" recipes.

One for Varroa and a completely different one for Nosema.

As it is, any reference to "Hivemakers Thymol Recipe" in the singular risks creating confusion.

The people that most need the guidance are those who know the least, and are most likely to be confused - and who should be turning to the stickies section for clear guidance.



I cannot understand the reluctance to improve the titles of those threads to help to avoid this confusion.
One title currently refers to "Autumn Thymol Treatment" (you guessed it - they are both normally applied in Autumn!) ;and the other to "Hivemaker's Recipe" (singular!)
Can you tell which is which at a glance? Or that they refer to TWO DIFFERENT recipes for different purposes?
Why not?

How difficult is it to improve this 'sticky' resource?

 

[oliver90owner]

How difficult? You really mean how easy?

One denoted varroa and the other nosema. Autumn and Hivemaker references can be retained.

Anyone actually tried to get the titles changed so as not to be ambiguous, ambivalent or whatever?

I will do that now. Done, or nearly done. (read that carefully, in context)

 

[Hivemaker.]

I will do that now. Done, or nearly done. (read that carefully, in context)

Thanks for the call Richard, sorted i hope, let me know if you want anything else added/altered.

 

[itma]

Thank you for sorting it - I hadn't raised the subject since October ...