Have they swarmed?!

[nicolajanewilkinson]

Hi new here
I have a Dartington
I have been doing weekly inspections this spring (not managing to fully see around all and every comb tho,due to them not wanting me to get into the final 4/5 frames )

They looked to be building up nicely and were happily occupying 16 frames 9 days ago.

Today I was surprised to see ALOT of wax cappings on the floor at the back of the hive.
There was a large hole been made through combs… is thiswhere lots of bees have filled their tummy’s and flown off ?!
they’ve had plenty of space to move into … I’m hoping not as I’m busy trying to set up a hive to do a split into for my son , if they’ve already gone this will be sad !


side note : And also…
They were GROWLING !!
I have never heard of it , looked it up , it’s a thing , no one knows what it is ! I was half expecting to see the neighbors cat which likes to sit on the roof , squidged under the frames stuck ! Honestly no idea .
Cornwall UK
Was a hot (for cornwall ) sunny day today , I wasn’t here til 3pm if they swarmed before that But weather has turned for the worse which I would have thought would be the opposite for ideal swarm conditions ..
thanks in advance …
Here’s a pic of the hole and cappings
And 9 days ago and today bees on frames - they felt a lot smaller and a lot quieter
The queen was there 9 days ago I know that because she photobombed one of my pictures !

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

** the before and after bees on frames for size pics are in reverse order above apologies **

 

[Boston Bees]

No, bees don't do that to their own comb before they swarm. They eat some honey - they don't tear the comb apart.

Something has robbed that out - either a rodent or maybe another hive robbing an undefended section of this hive.

Whether they have swarmed is another question entirely - maybe, maybe not - you need to look at those final 5 brood combs. But the damaged comb doesn't tell you anything about swarming.

 

[Wilco]

That would make me suspicious of some form of rodent, bees tend not to destroy comb like that.

As for swarming, entirely possible it's happened if you've not been able to inspect the entire hive. When you say they don't like you inspecting those bits, do you have a decent suit?

Growling... Usually vibrating wings against the hive IMO.

 

[Murox]

If we they sound like an angry chainsaw they are probably really peed off.

 

[Boston Bees]

That looks like a vast amount of unused, undefended space. I haven't used a long hive before - maybe this is normal. Someone who has can comment.

 

[Newbeeneil]

It looks like you have had a mouse in residence. I had one in one of my dead outs and the damage looked identical.

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

That looks like a vast amount of unused, undefended space. I haven't used a long hive before - maybe this is normal. Someone who has can comment.

Hi thanks for your reply : yes maybe I’m giving too many bars too soon

It looks like you have had a mouse in residence. I had one in one of my dead outs and the damage looked identical.

ah ha would explain the cat!!
I thought they stung intruders to death? Is a mouse too big for them ?
thanks for your reply
thanks for your reply

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

If we they sound like an angry chainsaw they are probably really peed off.

No not an angry chainsaw , YouTube search growling bees !

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why can’t you examine every frame?

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

That would make me suspicious of some form of rodent, bees tend not to destroy comb like that.

As for swarming, entirely possible it's happened if you've not been able to inspect the entire hive. When you say they don't like you inspecting those bits, do you have a decent suit?

Growling... Usually vibrating wings against the hive IMO.

Hi thanks for your reply
Yep fully suited and booted , smoker on - I just feel by the last frames they’ve had enough of being messed about and being exposed , only 5 mins or so in to it I’d say and they tend to start pinging me , so I take it as a hint and leave them bee - it’s just me not wanting to disturb the nest too much really …

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

Why can’t you examine every frame?

Thanks - see below I just typed in reply to another

 

[Boston Bees]

I thought they stung intruders to death? Is a mouse too big for them

The hive is so huge that they simply don't know it's been in

 

[Wilco]

Hi thanks for your reply
Yep fully suited and booted , smoker on - I just feel by the last frames they’ve had enough of being messed about and being exposed , only 5 mins or so in to it I’d say and they tend to start pinging me , so I take it as a hint and leave them bee - it’s just me not wanting to disturb the nest too much really …

If they start pinging you to the point you can't examine everything I'd personally not be keen to keep that queen or I'd double check my technique in case I'm doing something to upset them (not meaning to sound patronising but hard to know what another is like with bees). One thing you can do is lay an unoccupied frame over the ones you've yet to inspect and shift it as you go to cover the ones you've already checked. Can be useful to reduce flying if they're less placid.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks - see below I just typed in reply to another

Ah, yes. then I'd keep going regardless of pinging. That's what your suit is for. If it is intolerable then change the queen to something nice and calm. You have to be able to check every frame

 

[Buzby]

You've given far, far to much space. That hive is the equivalent of two 14 x 12 brood boxes side by side. The bees will never be able to keep the hive brood area at the optimum temperature. Start with a brood area plus two or three frames and expand as the colony increases in size. The Dartington should be used with insulated end boards to contain the size of the colony.
See the Omlet Beehaus (plastic Dartington) guide for management of a long hive.
I agree with previous posters that the damage looks to be caused by a rodent. You will need to sterilise and re-wax the affected frames. Bees are reluctant to use frames contaminated with rodent urine. https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

If they start pinging you to the point you can't examine everything I'd personally not be keen to keep that queen or I'd double check my technique in case I'm doing something to upset them (not meaning to sound patronising but hard to know what another is like with bees). One thing you can do is lay an unoccupied frame over the ones you've yet to inspect and shift it as you go to cover the ones you've already checked. Can be useful to reduce flying if they're less placid.

Yes I’ve been thinking of covering the front frames whilst I’m working the back - I don’t use foundation so a frame wouldn’t work , would a heavy cotton cloth or a piece of light ply cut to size work or would it get too many bees on it when I take it off?
last year and year before I wasn’t able to do anything with them due to health reasons ,and not using foundation , means those first frames are quite firmly comb

You've given far, far to much space. That hive is the equivalent of two 14 x 12 brood boxes side by side. The bees will never be able to keep the hive brood area at the optimum temperature. Start with a brood area plus two or three frames and expand as the colony increases in size. The Dartington should be used with insulated end boards to contain the size of the colony.
See the Omlet Beehaus (plastic Dartington) guide for management of a long hive.
I agree with previous posters that the damage looks to be caused by a rodent. You will need to sterilise and re-wax the affected frames. Bees are reluctant to use frames contaminated with rodent urine. https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf

hi thanks for your info -they were on 16 of those frames … then in my mind I was adding a few more frames as if supering for a flow …and in case I wasn’t able to do check in another weeks time , to make sure they had plenty of space so they don’t swarm … I guess it’s too much space ! I shall rectify it ASAP.
interesting about rodent urine … I don’t use wax foundationso wouldn’t be re-waxing - how do I sterilise this please ?
I will check out your link , appreciate your help .
I learnt on nationals and so have some knowledge gaps clearly.
maybe should be a different post - but in your opinion judging by the size of them now , would you say they will be able to be split this season ? Thank you

 

[Wilco]

Yes I’ve been thinking of covering the front frames whilst I’m working the back - I don’t use foundation so a frame wouldn’t work , would a heavy cotton cloth or a piece of light ply cut to size work or would it get too many bees on it when I take it off?
last year and year before I wasn’t able to do anything with them due to health reasons ,and not using foundation , means those first frames are quite firmly comb

hi thanks for your info -they were on 16 of those frames … then in my mind I was adding a few more frames as if supering for a flow …and in case I wasn’t able to do check in another weeks time , to make sure they had plenty of space so they don’t swarm … I guess it’s too much space ! I shall rectify it ASAP.
interesting about rodent urine … I don’t use wax foundationso wouldn’t be re-waxing - how do I sterilise this please ?
I will check out your link , appreciate your help .
I learnt on nationals and so have some knowledge gaps clearly.
maybe should be a different post - but in your opinion judging by the size of them now , would you say they will be able to be split this season ? Thank you

A drawn frame empty or with brood or stores works fine in my experience, even if you're foundationless this should be possible. Otherwise I'd go for the ply option (or cardboard) as it'll be easier to shake bees off afterwards than material.

As for a split for your son, focus on keeping this colony first. If you're constantly thinking about splitting it then you're more likely to lose them/swarms. If you split it will reduce any honey yield but one option would be to make a nuc from a couple of frames if it's expanded well in a couple of months. Personally I think having someone rear a colony from a nuc is a really useful way for them to get experience as initially it's small and easy to inspect, easier to find the queen too, they can experiment with feeding then later on they realise the importance of too much or too little space, needing lots of bees to rear lots of brood, etc.

However, if these bees are as defensive as it sounds, I personally would be hesitant to be making splits from them for someone else.

 

[nicolajanewilkinson]

Thank you for your advice . Well I don’t know how defensive they are compared to others because I have nothing to compare to really … this is the first year I’ve used a smoker on them and only one or two gentle puffs … couod you try to explain what a gentle colony should behave like for me please ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ones that let you look at every frame without flying up at you.