Has anyone had worse overwintering by switching to poly?

[foghornleghorn]

As the title, first year that I have enough hives in poly to make a decent comparison and they don't seem to have wintered quite as well as bees in timber hives have.
I'm putting it down to being more active and bees aging faster. We only had one or two frosty mornings all winter, so not really comparable to large parts of the uk.
All poly hives are in a single broodbox with poly roof (no vents) and mesh floor.

 

[madasafish]

Lots of variables incl. bee type and disease.EG: Nosema is not a visible disease - you need to test under a microscope..It affects some colonies badly in winter.

A statistically significant test would be hundreds of hives .

My experience is that poly gives better results.

 

[Poly Hive]

You know what I would say.

PH

 

[drex]

No. Much the same, but my polyhives are now needing fondant, while wood still have plenty of stores

 

[TooBee...]

I think the research on this subject is pretty good, in that insulated (poly) hives over-winter better, and build up quicker, however like has been said by more experienced members, one really needs 100's of hives for comparison, but I'm willing to go by the existing research, in which I'm happy with the methodologies, without relying on my anecdotal observations.

DerekM and ITLD would also atest to the better qualities of insulated hives during the summer, in aiding the bees to produce more honey from the available nectar.

 

[Beefriendly]

DerekM and ITLD would also atest to the better qualities of insulated hives during the summer, in aiding the bees to produce more honey from the available nectar.

They bring in more honey in poly because the the number of bees is greater in poly hives....faster spring build up.
Nowt to do with evaporation....well....except more bees = more wings to waft air about.

My pennyworth on overwintering. Ran 5 wood/5 poly side by side for 2 consecutive winters. No comparison. Poly was miles ahead in every case. Used less stores and were on average of 6/7 frames of brood vs 2/3 in wood at first inspection.
Needless to say I don't use wooden hives anymore unless I run out of kit.

 

[foghornleghorn]

I think the research on this subject is pretty good, in that insulated (poly) hives over-winter better, and build up quicker, however like has been said by more experienced members, one really needs 100's of hives for comparison, but I'm willing to go by the existing research, in which I'm happy with the methodologies, without relying on my anecdotal observations.

DerekM and ITLD would also atest to the better qualities of insulated hives during the summer, in aiding the bees to produce more honey from the available nectar.

Don't have 100's to compare but there is 100 and they definitely don't look any better.

Itld and most of UK had a much colder winter this year so is it comparable?

 

[Finman]

.
First year I needed only two polyhives to see, what is difference with colder wooden hives and those 2 polyhives. Then I bought polys more and saw the difference.

Then I started heat hives in spring with terrarium heaters and I saw what meaning warm hive has to bees.

Polys I started to buy 30 years ago.

.

.

 

[Swarm]

As the title, first year that I have enough hives in poly to make a decent comparison and they don't seem to have wintered quite as well as bees in timber hives have.
I'm putting it down to being more active and bees aging faster. We only had one or two frosty mornings all winter, so not really comparable to large parts of the uk.
All poly hives are in a single broodbox with poly roof (no vents) and mesh floor.

My first venture into poly was ten years ago, I can honestly say I've not noticed any advantage. I wouldn't say they have done worse though.
I rarely feed, or at least, I feed very little but I do feed the nucs. After the harsh weather this time last year, the colonies were all pretty much the same.

 

[TooBee...]

Don't have 100's to compare but there is 100 and they definitely don't look any better.

Itld and most of UK had a much colder winter this year so is it comparable?

mmm, you make a good point, especially when you read the other comments here, it appears that they make a noticeable difference in severe weather, this year we didn't really have a Winter!

 

[SDM]

How many of those using wooden hives and not noticing a difference are using supplementary insulation up top ?

 

[Ian123]

I am happy to be proven wrong but i am sure itld has said that he finds initial build up in wooden hives faster as the bees respond better to the climate. Its once the poly hive bee numbers start building up and creating their own heat that they surpass the wooden. I make a habit of putting my hives in full sun and if you have a line of hives those in full sun are far more active winter through. You only need to place your hand on the side of a hive that gets sun even in winter to feel the warmth. I also have often found brood rearing start on the side of hives that get the heat, much the same as in a double nuc box bees often start rearing on the centre wall using this natural heat source.
I currently in the garden have a polys next door to a wooden hives with sister queens and the wooden hives bees are out the door first. Its just a case of insulation works both ways. I brought 20 brood boxes off itld early/mid 2000s and a few more along the way from others, however as i could still get a seconds wooden box for cheaper i stuck with them. What i would say is any breeder queens, small colonies or those i have a soft spot for all get a poly box. Yes i believe bees winter well in them but if i was offered 100 poly or 100 wooden boxes for free it would not be a straight forward answer, but would probably go poly in the end..........maybe. Ive broken a few of those first poly hives, woodpeckers made a mess of a couple but the majority are still going.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As the title, first year that I have enough hives in poly to make a decent comparison and they don't seem to have wintered quite as well as bees in timber hives have.

Haven't seen any worse over wintering, but haven't seen any better either.

 

[Fusion_power]

I don't see anyone quoting the studies, just giving anecdotes which are roughly evenly balanced.

Brother Adam experimented with insulated hives - albeit not poly - and found serious difficulties with the bees failing to respond to increases in temperature. Wood hives got winter cleansing flights where insulated hives stayed indoors.

The December 1943 issue of Gleanings has an article by Edward Anderson professor of Apiculture at State College Pennsylvania. In it, he noted disparate results from packed vs plain wooden colonies. He did not do a detailed enough experiment to explain the disparity. This article is worth reading to get a sense of the perplexity people expressed when their favorite hobby horse turned out to be a boon doggle. He used light bulbs in the hives to increase the temperature thereby preventing normal metabolic process by the bees.

Mobus in the July 1998 issue of American Bee Journal published the first tested and verified proof why insulated hives are problematic. He used styrofoam boxes to set up an elaborate experiment where he found that the problem is water availability. Highly insulated hives prevent the bees from metabolizing enough honey to produce the water they need for wintering. You can easily check this. Sugar C6H12O6 combines with 6 oxygen O2 to form 6 carbon dioxide CO2 and release 6 water H20. A colony wintering in a wooden hive has to metabolize more honey to maintain internal temperatures therefore produces more water which is needed for basically the same reasons we drink water in winter. After a few weeks of being too thirsty, the insulated hives had bees flying out on very cold days desperately foraging....... for water. This is probably not the only effect but is likely the most significant.

Several posts mention that poly hives build up earlier. There are two effects that are much more effective at producing early buildup. Frame spacing of 31.5 mm can cut spring buildup by about 2 weeks from an average of 10 weeks to 8 weeks. Combining narrow frames with smaller cell foundation similarly speeds up spring buildup. This is because in each case, a cluster of given size can cover more total brood surface. This is most likely the reason my bees are bursting at the seams already where other beekeepers in the area are reporting normal buildup.

My wintering conditions at latitude @36 are quite a bit different from UK conditions at latitude @45 and we are both drastically different from tropical regions where rainy/dry seasons prevail. It is easy to speculate that in some climates poly hives would be totally acceptable and in others would be a significant detriment. I'm happy with wooden boxes and, based on the hives I inspected a couple of days ago, the bees are pretty happy too.

 

[coffindodger]

"After a few weeks of being too thirsty, the insulated hives had bees flying out on very cold days desperately foraging....... for water. This is probably not the only effect but is likely the most significant."
My own non-scientific observation has been that even on cold or windy days bees would be flying from poly hive to water sources. Not able to make a comparison with wooden hives.

 

[foghornleghorn]

How many of those using wooden hives and not noticing a difference are using supplementary insulation up top ?

9mm OSB crown board and 18mm OSB + felt in the roof is all the insulation the timber hives here have.

 

[B+.]

How many of those using wooden hives and not noticing a difference are using supplementary insulation up top ?

I have both wooden and poly hives. The most significant difference is that wood, being a natural material, absorbs moisture. It isn't stable, it warps. Poly is completely stable.
Colonies in wooden hives can suffer from damp more.

 

[Poly Hive]

I was probably the 2nd person in the UK to run more than a handful of poly. The first was to my knowledge Struan Apiaries. Mobus was mentor to both of us.

My experience was this. In Spring about now in Aberdeenshire the timber units would be brooding and the poly would NOT. I distinctly remember coming back from offshore and being shocked at the differences and initially getting very worried about being Q- but every season the polys would kick in and after a further month, they would outstrip the timber units hands down.

Yes this is again anecdotal but Struan had the same experience and if there is doubt why would the big bee framers be changing over to poly? They are not riding hobby horses, people, they are making money.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

if there is doubt why would the big bee framers be changing over to poly?

Many of them are not, even having poly hives, they are now buying vast numbers of wooden hives instead.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I had one poly hive recently. Won in a raffle. For three winters it’s colony was the only one in the apiary that died in the winter. Soaking wet at the end of winter. I tried bottom entrance alone. Bottom entrance and top entrance together. All the same. Gave it away this past summer.