Harvesting & Winter Prep

[tomtomhitter]

Hi all,

I have some questions about prepping my hives for winter.

I have 3 hives, all started from Nucs in late April. Not have which have grown to full broods nor collected a full super (due to other problems earlier in the season). The best of the 3 hives has 6 full frames of honey, the worst just 3.

I don't want to harvest anything this season in order to give them the best chance over winter. Feeding has already started, too. (Currently 2:1??)

What are people's opinions about leaving supers on over winter?
The two main schools of thought seem to be:
A) Don't do it. Remove super. Feed until brood is sufficiently full.
Reasons: Extra space to keep warm can be harmful.
B) Leave super on. Remove queen excluder.
Reasons: Queen can move upto food with cluster if needed.

I do plan to insulate the hives well over winter, so I hope this would negate the temperature issue...
If I remove the q.e. to allow queen movement, then I risk finding brood in the super in early spring. At this point I plan to place the queen back in the brood box and add q.e.
Will the brood wax in the super be recycled to store honey in the following season,or will this process render the super frames useless for storing?

One last question:
Would it be worth swapping out empty brood frames with full super frames?
I presume it's too late in the year for them to be focusing on drawing out foundation?

Thanks in advance.
Tom

 

[Beefriendly]

First of all remove your QX's.
Hives should not have any QX on over winter.
You could put your supers underneath (nadir) but as they contain frames of honey the bees will just waste time moving them back upstairs.
Your simplest option is to remove the QX and leave as is.
Insulation is very good.

But I cannot understand why you wouldn't want to take some honey off your bees. Its delicious stuff.
If you had an accountant he would be screaming at your wastefulness
Honey sells at around £7 /lb: Sugar for feeding costs 64p for 2.2lbs....
No brainer.

 

[Beefriendly]

Would it be worth swapping out empty brood frames with full super frames?
I presume it's too late in the year for them to be focusing on drawing out foundation?
/QUOTE]
That would sound like a daft thing to do.
And no it's not too late for bees to draw foundation...keep feeding them sugar solution.

 

[deemann1]

Would it be worth swapping out empty brood frames with full super frames?
I presume it's too late in the year for them to be focusing on drawing out foundation?
/QUOTE]
That would sound like a daft thing to do.
And no it's not too late for bees to draw foundation...keep feeding them sugar solution.

I swapped out 2 bb frames from each hive they are working away on pulling out the foundation ivy is on flow now

 

[tomtomhitter]

Ok, thanks!! So, will wax used for brood in the supers be converted into honey stores over the season?

The reason I don't want to harvest is purely because I want to give them a sporting chance.

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE honey and I have a list of potential customers as long as my arm. But I'm thinking that if I take a hit this season, then next year will be doubly profitable.
(I may steal a couple of frames from the best performing hive, just for myself!)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why do you think taking the honey away and replacing it with sugar would compromise their overwintering ability?
Yes, you can use frames which have had brood in for stores later.

 

[tomtomhitter]

Why do you think taking the honey away and replacing it with sugar would compromise their overwintering ability?
Yes, you can use frames which have had brood in for stores later.

Because I'ma bit of a worrier.

No matter how much reading I've done and videos I've watched, my bees always seem to do things differently.
Basically I'm concerned that, even though people are saying they'll take as much feed as they need as quickly as possible, that they actually won't and they'll starve over winter. So any extra resources are going to be helpful.

How long would feeding continue into Oct/Nov/Dec?
I'm now considering harvesting everything and just continuing the 2:1 feeding.
Ha.

 

[Beefriendly]

Basically I'm concerned that, even though people are saying they'll take as much feed as they need as quickly as possible,

Oh but they do. My greedy sods are demolishing 5 litres of 2:1 in 24 hours.
They will overwinter just as well on sugar as on honey...

 

[Ian123]

Bees will keep taking syrup I find until the first hard frosts When basicaly it becomes to cold for them to take it down they don’t like cold syrup. Ive had cold spells and they’ve refused it followed by better weather and they start to take it again

 

[Levitt53]

Don’t be put off leaving them honey if you want to. That’s your choice. Yes sugar is cheaper than honey but it’s still up to you.

 

[BeeSpace]

I was going to leave a super on two of my colonies too, but in the end decided to take them off and extract as I needed to treat anyway and if I had to store them while I treated I might as well just extract and feed while I treat!

You say in your initial post that feeding has started already - if you're feeding with the honey supers on, that's going to cause an issue with any crop (from a sales perspective) as some will be stored syrup rather than honey so couldn't be sold as honey.

Also, have you treated for varroa, or do you plan to, as this will impact your decision I guess?

All of mine are happily still drawing comb so it's definitely not too late if you need them to.

 

[Wingy]

Also my first full season and 3 hives going into winter. I haven’t taken much honey this year either about 20Kg across all 3 hives. I’m just coming to the end of my varroa treatment (Apiguard) but due to space issues and not wanting them to swarm I left 2 supers over the brood box, one hive was double brood. This now means the honey will be tainted with thymol so only good for the bees now. I haven’t fed at all this year and don’t plan to over winter I know sugar / honey price but it’s a hobby for me and trying to give the bees a help in hand.
I’ve just got 1 hive down to brood + super no QX so that’s winter ready. Got both others down to brood + super with another super over QX. In next couple of weeks top super & QX will come off & all will be insulated for winter. Extracted supers will be fed back early spring

 

[For want of a better word]

Ok, thanks!! So, will wax used for brood in the supers be converted into honey stores over the season?

Yes the foundation that has had brood in it will be filled with honey next season if the bees decide to store it there, but may not look nice as it will have old cocoon in it.

The reason I don't want to harvest is purely because I want to give them a sporting chance.

You will still need to feed them sugar

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE honey and I have a list of potential customers as long as my arm. But I'm thinking that if I take a hit this season, then next year will be doubly profitable.

2018 has been one of the 10 year beat forage years... so you may have to wait some time before the next 88lb/colony year!

(I may steal a couple of frames from the best performing hive, just for myself!)

Enjoy
Yeghes da

 

[Compost Kid]

Because I'ma bit of a worrier.

No matter how much reading I've done and videos I've watched, my bees always seem to do things differently.
Basically I'm concerned that, even though people are saying they'll take as much feed as they need as quickly as possible, that they actually won't and they'll starve over winter. So any extra resources are going to be helpful.

Haha, this thread could have been written by me! This is exactly what I've been pondering and like you, I've been trawling the internet and bee books, trying to find the way that will most likely keep my bees alive and healthy this winter!

In the end, I have all thetaken the supers off and extracted (and enjoyed!) the honey because I needed to apply Apiguard and I've been feeding thick syrup which they are taking down into their brood box happily enough. When it gets too cold for syrup or when they're no longer taking it, I will replace with a little block of bee fondant which I'll check every so often during the Winter to make sure they've enough.

I totally get your hair pulling and worrying! I think every conversation with my other half this Summer has been bee-related and starts with "I'm worrying about XXXX". I'm hoping that next year I won't be so anxious! It's a fascinating hobby and if you decide to extract that honey, enjoy it!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You should both consider adding some of Hivemaker's thymol emulsion to your syrup (to stop fermentation of course - not as a medicant ) a good precaution against nosema and it's proven that colonies are stronger in the spring.

When it gets too cold for syrup or when they're no longer taking it, I will replace with a little block of bee fondant

Forget 'bee fondant' save your money for more important things and buy a slab of baker's fondant - it's exactly the same stuff.

 

[Ian123]

When cutting the bakers fondant up I wrap the few pound chunks in cling film with small flap cut to allow access. This in some instances prevents fondant drying to concrete and in damp conditions stops the fondant turning into a sloppy mess

 

[Swarm]

Make sure that you get the correct bakers fondant, no additives.

 

[tomtomhitter]

All great advice, guys!

Thank you very much.

I have decided to harvest what honey there is and feed. The weather is still relatively mild so I'm hoping there's another month of potential feeding and winter prep time. Plus I'm hoping that my insulation (when it goes on) will keep them warm enough over winter to prevent isolation starvation.
I was also thinking that each of the 3 supers has more empty space than stores, so it'd be a false economy to leave them on. (More energy used keeping the entire box warm than generated by eating what honey there is!?)

I suppose I can now treat as necessary without worry. However, not saying that I won't treat, but I have really been on the lookout for mites over the season... and I mean REALLY looking (again, the worrying thing!) and have only spotted THREE across three hives!

I will research the thymol emulsion, thanks!!

 

[drex]

A hive can be riddled with mites and you still won't see any. Natural mite drop onto a sticky board will give you an idea of mite numbers, but much more accurate is an alcohol wash.