good and bad new modern hive designs

[priono]

I'm not sure if this is a favourite or un-favourite, but it is an interesting flash in the pan nonetheless... triangular frames (1979):

http://www.twilightmd.com/Samples/Hogg/Hogg_Halfcomb___Publications/ABJ_1979_May.pdf

that is really interesting and strange design. i wonder how they prevent the boxes from sliding apart or just putting it down on a level surface when inspecting the box underneath.

the philips hive is really strange as well. it is designed to harvest the honey by poking the combs with a long dipstick from underneath until the honey flows. the designer was a real dipstick too

 

[oliver90owner]

Carp.

Bees build vertical comb.

Just plain carp and should be recognised as such by any basic keeper of bees.

 

[ugcheleuce]

[Rubbish]. ... Bees build vertical comb. ... Just plain [rubbish], and should be recognised as such by any basic keeper of bees.

I'll assume your comment is about the triangular frames. There is nothing non-vertical about the triangular frames.

I wonder how they prevent the boxes from sliding apart, or just putting it down on a level surface when inspecting the box underneath.

My guess is that this is a double-walled hive, so that the outer wall forms a frame for the inner boxes to rest in. The frames would have to be rotated by about 30 degrees to inspect them, yes.

The Philips Hive is really strange as well. It is designed to harvest the honey by poking the combs with a long dipstick from underneath until the honey flows.

Interesting approach, and not altogether silly. After all, that's how various animals and primitive humans harvest honey when they encounter a bees' nest in a tree -- by scraping against the comb, so that the comb breaks and the honey flows out. The bees will simply repair the comb.

I can imagine a system of harvesting honey from the top or the side of a hive using a hot-wire type of knife system that you stick between the frames and either lift out the comb that you've cut or letting the honey drip down. Such a system can be designed to avoid any contact with the bees (for more timid beekeepers, or more aggressive bees).

 

[alice-edmund]

As a new beekeeper I bought an Apimaye hive last year - the bees seem happy enough - certainly full of bees this pm.
I can review it from my 'newbie' perspective if anybody wishes; I don't think it's perfect but my wife did not want some 'tatty old wooden boxes that have knocked together by some old man in a shed' as she put it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

'tatty old wooden boxes that have knocked together by some old man in a shed' as she put it.

There are works of art put together by the guys and gals on the forum

 

[madasafish]

The 'tatty old wooden boxes that have knocked together by some old man in a shed' in my garden are the start of my ark for the forthcoming flood...

PS: Cheshire and London will be under 100+ meters of water if it floats..

 

[Mellifera397]

I've only tried the Beehaus so I'm no expert on modern hives.

However, I found getting frames out really clumsy as it not only uses 14x12 frames but also you have to stand to the side of the hive which really. Irritated me. If you want to pull out frames easily you have to stand in front of the entrance.

Although there are a number of benefits such as smaller supers and ease of cleaning.

M

 

[pargyle]

There are works of art put together by the guys and gals on the forum

I'm with you on that Erica ... personally, I find a degree of beauty in old beehives and old sheds for that matter. Recycling makes me feel good as well.

I think some people become obsessed with 'new and pretty' ... part of our use, abuse, dispose of society I fear !

 

[Tom Bick]

One for Derek m a super

Sorry Derek tried three times to get the photo to load

 

[Oscarmonster]

The Apimaye hive is hardly a thing of beauty.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe if you're a Borg ......

 

[ugcheleuce]

The Bienenkiste ("bee box")

Here's a flat, frameless hive -- the Bienenkiste ("bee box"):
http://www.bienenkiste.de/_SA18/

The hive is as tall and as wide as a BN brood frame, and 1 meter long. The front 75% of it is the brood nest, and you start the nest by attaching starter strips to the roof (this ensures that they build reasonably straight comb as you like it). The rear 25% is the honey super. The hive entrance has a long landing board and a long canopy.

The hive is inspected by unclipping it from the floor and then raising the entire hive on a hinge (at the the back) so that the hive is inspected "from underneath" while the hive is standing on its end. A broom's handle can be used to prop up the hive if you don't want to open it 90 degrees.

I find that the video near the top of this page gives the best overview of what this hive is.

This may be the closest thing to skep beekeeping in a box.

The web site has detailled building instructions, though not proper plans. I like the feature whereby you can select the thickness of your wood, and the plank dimensions are automatically updated for you.

 

[sugarbush]

Pretty much there are no new beehive designs. Even the Philips thing is just a crock type hive. The Middle East have been keeping bees in jars and crocks for eons.

I spoke with Tim Rowe a few years ago about promoting his hive here in the USA. He sent me his book and I have a mentoree who built the hive and has kept bees in it. Reading the book the methods are eerily similar to the practices Micheal Bush has been using for a few decades minus the hive box design.

My conclusion was that either beekeepers do what works or Tim read Bush's site before developing his hive.

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

 

[pargyle]

[/url]

The hive is as tall and as wide as a BN brood frame, and 1 meter long. The front 75% of it is the brood nest, and you start the nest by attaching starter strips to the roof (this ensures that they build reasonably straight comb as you like it). The rear 25% is the honey super. The hive entrance has a long landing board and a long canopy.

The hive is inspected by unclipping it from the floor and then raising the entire hive on a hinge (at the the back) so that the hive is inspected "from underneath" while the hive is standing on its end. A broom's handle can be used to prop up the hive if you don't want to open it 90 degrees.

This may be the closest thing to skep beekeeping in a box.

I can't quite see the benefit in this design... if you are going to the trouble of building this in order to 'Keep' bees then you might as well build a long hive and do the job properly with frames.

Cutting, hanging on its side, unsupported, comb out of a box full of bees in order to harvest honey is going to be an interesting experience. Plus, the likelihood is that one or more of the brood combs will break off the 'starter strips' once the box is hinged up to the vertical ... could be lots of fun then !

If you are just interested in providing a leave alone home for bees then perhaps just a vertical box that they could occupy would make more sense and leave them alone.

If it's some way in between then a top bar hive would better meet the criteria.

Silly idea in my opinion ... not sure what the objective was.

 

[ugcheleuce]

My conclusion was that either beekeepers do what works or Tim read Bush's site before developing his hive.

Or, both Tim and Michael read Enoch Zander's materials, which pre-date both of them by several decades.

Can you tell us what you believe Tim's hive and Michael's hive has in common?

Both Tim's (Rose) and Michael's (presumably Illinois) hives take roughly the same size frames (measured by comb area), but Tim's box has 12 frames and Michael's preference is 8 frames. That is a big difference.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotinvented.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

The closest thing to the Rose method that I can find on Michael's site is his very brief description of ULBN beekeeping:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

Can you tell us where on Michael's site is the description of a beekeeping method that is similar to the Rose method? (I don't expect you to have memorised the whole site, etc, but if you know what the link is, it would be interesting to read.)

 

[sugarbush]

1. Unlimited brood space.
2. What mike calls "all mediums and Tim calls OSB (One size box).
3. Foundationless frames.
4. Split by the box.
5. bottom supering.
etc.

Of course you would have to use Tim's book and compare to Mike's site, as Tim guards his methods so they are not openly available on his website.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I can't quite see the benefit in this design... if you are going to the trouble of building this in order to 'keep' bees then you might as well build a long hive and do the job properly with frames.

Frames are only necessary if you absolutely want to inspect the hive one comb at a time, and inspect it in a way that involves temporarily removing the comb from the hive, and (most commonly) if you want to inspect it from above (i.e. by opening the nest at the top). If these things are not required, then frames are not required.

Sure, if you want to populate such a hive quickly, using existing frames with comb, you can nail them to the roof of the hive. There is nothing wrong with using frames in this type of hive, but there is no real benefit either.

Cutting hanging on its side, unsupported, comb out of a box full of bees in order to harvest honey is going to be an interesting experience.

I'm not sure when or how they harvest, but note that the hive is lifted in a way that keeps the comb is perpendicular to the ground, and the comb is "short" enough not to break off when held at that angle (the combs won't be bigger than about 20 cm high). And the "honey" section of the hive is separate from the brood section.

I mentiond "skep" specifically because even the dimensions of the hive reminds me rather specifically of the Uddelic supered skep.

If it's some way in between then a top bar hive would better meet the criteria.

A top-bar hive can't be inspected as a whole hive, and certainly not using a single glance, and you can't inspect the hive without removing the combs. The Bienenkiste hive can be inspected as a whole, without removing any of the comb temporarily and without breaking open the "top" of the nest, and what's more, if you spot something in two differnet combs that are not adjacent each other, you can inspect both, practically simultaneously, using a standard skep knife. Even if you magically knew which combs in the top-bar hive needs looking at, you can't inspect both of them at the same time.

 

[ugcheleuce]

4. Split by the box.

Thanks. I realise both Tim and Michael use the word "split" in their method, but:

Michael's "split by the box" is done at the start of the season, and involves hives with at least four boxes. It works like this: suppose your hive has six boxes, and you number the boxes from the bottom to the top as "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6" etc, then you create one new hive using boxes 1+3+5 and another new hive using boxes 2+4+6.

Tim's splitting is done towards the end of the season, after the honey is harvested. It involves taking the boxes at the bottom of the hive (e.g. the bottom two) and separating them from each other, and placing an empty box on top of each, so that both of them grow into a wintering nest.

5. bottom supering.

I'll keep looking but for now I can't find this on Michael's site.

Of course you would have to use Tim's book and compare to Mike's site, as Tim guards his methods so they are not openly available on his website.

Does the faux-animated PDF on the first page of this search not cover the gist of it?

 

[pargyle]

.

Hi Samuel,

Frames are only necessary if you absolutely want to inspect the hive one comb at a time, and inspect it in a way that involves temporarily removing the comb from the hive, and (most commonly) if you want to inspect it from above (i.e. by opening the nest at the top). If these things are not required, then frames are not required.

Of course I understand this ... but one has to ask what is the point of inspecting this type of hive ... your options for interfering with, say, varroacides, are limited by the design and if you are not going to inspect then what's the point of having it hinged for inspection ?


Sure, if you want to populate such a hive quickly, using existing frames with comb, you can nail them to the roof of the hive. There is nothing wrong with using frames in this type of hive, but there is no real benefit either.

As I said ... might as well have a LDH or a National/Langstroth etc.. more practical, usable and versatile.

I'm not sure when or how they harvest, but note that the hive is lifted in a way that keeps the comb is perpendicular to the ground, and the comb is "short" enough not to break off when held at that angle (the combs won't be bigger than about 20 cm high). And the "honey" section of the hive is separate from the brood section.

Couldn't quite see how this works ... if it hinges as I think it does then the combs won't be perpendicular when it is hinged upward and, as any top bar owner will tell you, handling unsupported comb is normally done keeping the comb in a vertical plane as the likelihood of comb breaking off under its own weight is high if you subject the attachment to the full weight of comb on its side. Even with only 20cm of comb that's a lot of weight to support on the top join.

The only way you could harvest is by cutting the combs off with a warre style knife that has a blade at right angles to a shaft so you can cut the comb away from the top attachment and remove it whole. The bees will love you, doing this 'in-situ'.


A top-bar hive can't be inspected as a whole hive, and certainly not using a single glance, and you can't inspect the hive without removing the combs. The Bienenkiste hive can be inspected as a whole, without removing any of the comb temporarily and without breaking open the "top" of the nest, and what's more, if you spot something in two differnet combs that are not adjacent each other, you can inspect both, practically simultaneously, using a standard skep knife. Even if you magically knew which combs in the top-bar hive needs looking at, you can't inspect both of them at the same time


Like I said ... why would you want to inspect this type of hive - might as well go for a Warre which will do the same job but probably better. The reality is that, once the bees have built free comb in this type of hive, you are going to be hard pushed to see anything but the bottom edge and a few cells up into the box - so what's the inspection going to achieve ?

Sorry Samuel, I still think it's a silly box to keep bees in ... no benefits over any existing patterns that I can see and lots of disadvantages.

 

[Madge]

...
5. bottom supering.
etc.
... as Tim guards his methods so they are not openly available on his website.

Why do you think Tim is secretive? There is a video on his website explaining his method of making increase - not by bottom supering but by placing a new box in-between two boxes spanning a full broodnest. (I tried to give a link but it does not work. It is the second video on the tab 'What are Rose Hives'.)

A few years ago he used to have a very good schematic video explaining the method - but that has disappeared.

Kitta