Funny Honey

[Curly green finger's]

I thought it was apple that doesn't like being called shirley

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Shirley is a tomato - shirley?

 

[madasafish]

Thanks; I read David before I posted and I normally regard everything he says as canonical. But it was the idea of "trapped bubbles" that made me wonder, and doubt. He does not cite any investigation or evidence, which is quite unusual, for him. I had an inexpert search around the interweb echo chamber, but again, could not find anything other than unsupported assertion, also known as folk-lore. So I thought folks on here might have a more scientifically-based source to reassure me

When a liquid turns to a solid, its ability to hold gas dissolved in the liquid vanishes.
Simple physics.

See also ice on ponds and a layer of gas underneath the ice.

 

[Amari]

Shirley is a tomato - shirley?

https://marshallsgarden.com/product...iIsDWZml1ccxBDO43kRoCXg8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Curly green finger's]

https://marshallsgarden.com/product...iIsDWZml1ccxBDO43kRoCXg8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

One of montys favourites.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I just tell my customers it's a bit of crystallisation because the honey is naturally "rich". Bullsh*t baffles brains

 

[CaptainCymru]

Forgive me for reviving this. Is there a definitive answer to what causes frosting? I find the assertion that it is "bubbles in the honey" a bit implausible. Even OSR honey does not set that fast. View attachment 22701

To be fair as a consumer it wouldnt put me off. Everyone is shifting to this natural "raw" scene this days , people even drinking raw milk. The more rugged a product looks the better I think. Proves it was made by hand and not on some massive production line where everything is perfect.Thats just my take.

 

[Apple]

To be fair as a consumer it wouldnt put me off. Everyone is shifting to this natural "raw" scene this days , people even drinking raw milk. The more rugged a product looks the better I think. Proves it was made by hand and not on some massive production line where everything is perfect.Thats just my take.

Marbelling and bubbles on the top of soft set honey are something the real honey officionados look for...... one does not get that in beaten to death creamed honey, which is the blended "set honey" sold cheaply elsewhere.

Sell the benefits!

Nadelik Lowen

 

[Firefly]

When a liquid turns to a solid, its ability to hold gas dissolved in the liquid vanishes.
Simple physics.

See also ice on ponds and a layer of gas underneath the ice.

When a single substance goes from liquid phase to solid phase, that's true. Crystallisation of honey is the precipitation of crystals from a super-saturated solution, rather than a simple phase-change, so the situation is certainly more complex than just going from liquid to solid. You may still be right that the process releases gas that gets trapped as bubbles, but I'd love to see some systematic research written up and peer-reviewed

 

[Into the lions den]

Most honeys offered in the set form CAN frost.

The main secret is how advanced the crystallisation is at the time of packing. Could go all scientific with info about FG ratios etc but the nub of it is this...

The two main sugars in honey form their own crystal matrixes...the gridlock one comes from the Glucose/Dextrose component.
Hence the honey can go quite firm and non flowing before it gets really pale and opaque..which is as the secondary phase kicks in.

On a small scale the best way to avoid it to put your seeded honey back into buckets and let it set hard. Will have done all the glucose crystallisation and shrinkage (and thus frosting) in the bucket. Then warm it JUST enough to be able to beat it with a paddle (a good quality broom handle does a perfect job) without introducing too much air, whereas a creamer can sometimes do too much aeriation.

Once you have beaten the honey enough for it to be lump free and slow flowing, jar it. Its shrinking has been done and it will no longer frost.

However, if you warm it too much and the glucose matrix is breaking down, it WILL reshrink to some extent in the jar and some degree of frosting can recur.

So..in a nutshell...it has been packed while not crystallised enough and has contracted in the jar. Very strongly linked to colder storage conditions too which exacerbates the contraction issue.

It CAN be salvaged....without melting it out. Soften it in the jar by gentle warming then stir it thoroughly with something like a knitting needle, carefully getting all that bubble (caused by contracting..it was not artificially introduced) away to the top. Recap the jars once the honey looks fine and watch it over the following days. Done correctly the frosting does not come back. Like with the honey in the buckets..only soften it enough to make it workeable, too much and the problem can recur. Knitting needle is the most effective tool we ever used for this. Spoons introduce air, make to much of a wave through the honey, and the clingage is too much so it gets messy. With the needle, as you finish the stir spiral it back out by going round and round the edge of the jar...cleans most of the honey off back into the container as you go so far less mess.

Use a sturdy needle or skewer or similar that you cannot lose paint flakes from. Impaling the needle/skewer through a sturdy cork or rubber bung gives a better grip and if you have a lot of jars to do avoids getting finger blisters.

Did this more often than I care to think about back in our early days.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

i had this with our summer honey this year...warmed it gently with loose lids and problem sorted

 

[Firefly]

Most honeys offered in the set form CAN frost.

The main secret is how advanced the crystallisation is at the time of packing. Could go all scientific with info about FG ratios etc but the nub of it is this...

The two main sugars in honey form their own crystal matrixes...the gridlock one comes from the Glucose/Dextrose component.
Hence the honey can go quite firm and non flowing before it gets really pale and opaque..which is as the secondary phase kicks in.

On a small scale the best way to avoid it to put your seeded honey back into buckets and let it set hard. Will have done all the glucose crystallisation and shrinkage (and thus frosting) in the bucket. Then warm it JUST enough to be able to beat it with a paddle (a good quality broom handle does a perfect job) without introducing too much air, whereas a creamer can sometimes do too much aeriation.

Once you have beaten the honey enough for it to be lump free and slow flowing, jar it. Its shrinking has been done and it will no longer frost.

However, if you warm it too much and the glucose matrix is breaking down, it WILL reshrink to some extent in the jar and some degree of frosting can recur.

So..in a nutshell...it has been packed while not crystallised enough and has contracted in the jar. Very strongly linked to colder storage conditions too which exacerbates the contraction issue.

It CAN be salvaged....without melting it out. Soften it in the jar by gentle warming then stir it thoroughly with something like a knitting needle, carefully getting all that bubble (caused by contracting..it was not artificially introduced) away to the top. Recap the jars once the honey looks fine and watch it over the following days. Done correctly the frosting does not come back. Like with the honey in the buckets..only soften it enough to make it workeable, too much and the problem can recur. Knitting needle is the most effective tool we ever used for this. Spoons introduce air, make to much of a wave through the honey, and the clingage is too much so it gets messy. With the needle, as you finish the stir spiral it back out by going round and round the edge of the jar...cleans most of the honey off back into the container as you go so far less mess.

Use a sturdy needle or skewer or similar that you cannot lose paint flakes from. Impaling the needle/skewer through a sturdy cork or rubber bung gives a better grip and if you have a lot of jars to do avoids getting finger blisters.

Did this more often than I care to think about back in our early days.

Fantastic info - thank you. I'm glad you put the bit in about the "early days" - I had an image of you sitting in a shed for the whole Covid winter with a knitting needle, working through 5000 colonies worth of honey...

Is there a good, written source for more detail about the crystallisation process? I find that knowing this kind of thing makes me such a hit at dinner parties

 

[Newbeeneil]

[QUOTE="Firefly, post: 740863, member: 5906
I find that knowing this kind of thing makes me such a hit at dinner parties
[/QUOTE]
In your dreams

 

[Erichalfbee]

Most honeys offered in the set form CAN frost.

The main secret is how advanced the crystallisation is at the time of packing. Could go all scientific with info about FG ratios etc but the nub of it is this...

The two main sugars in honey form their own crystal matrixes...the gridlock one comes from the Glucose/Dextrose component.
Hence the honey can go quite firm and non flowing before it gets really pale and opaque..which is as the secondary phase kicks in.

On a small scale the best way to avoid it to put your seeded honey back into buckets and let it set hard. Will have done all the glucose crystallisation and shrinkage (and thus frosting) in the bucket. Then warm it JUST enough to be able to beat it with a paddle (a good quality broom handle does a perfect job) without introducing too much air, whereas a creamer can sometimes do too much aeriation.

Once you have beaten the honey enough for it to be lump free and slow flowing, jar it. Its shrinking has been done and it will no longer frost.

However, if you warm it too much and the glucose matrix is breaking down, it WILL reshrink to some extent in the jar and some degree of frosting can recur.

So..in a nutshell...it has been packed while not crystallised enough and has contracted in the jar. Very strongly linked to colder storage conditions too which exacerbates the contraction issue.

It CAN be salvaged....without melting it out. Soften it in the jar by gentle warming then stir it thoroughly with something like a knitting needle, carefully getting all that bubble (caused by contracting..it was not artificially introduced) away to the top. Recap the jars once the honey looks fine and watch it over the following days. Done correctly the frosting does not come back. Like with the honey in the buckets..only soften it enough to make it workeable, too much and the problem can recur. Knitting needle is the most effective tool we ever used for this. Spoons introduce air, make to much of a wave through the honey, and the clingage is too much so it gets messy. With the needle, as you finish the stir spiral it back out by going round and round the edge of the jar...cleans most of the honey off back into the container as you go so far less mess.

Use a sturdy needle or skewer or similar that you cannot lose paint flakes from. Impaling the needle/skewer through a sturdy cork or rubber bung gives a better grip and if you have a lot of jars to do avoids getting finger blisters.

Did this more often than I care to think about back in our early days.

Thanks for that brilliant piece of info form somebody who actually knows what they are talking about

 

[Into the lions den]

Marbelling and bubbles on the top of soft set honey are something the real honey officionados look for...... one does not get that in beaten to death creamed honey, which is the blended "set honey" sold cheaply elsewhere.

Sell the benefits!

Nadelik Lowen

This is spot on. The vertical lines you sometimes see in set honey are caused as the air bubble slowly rises out o it, causing and alignment of the crystals up the track. Such honey is invariably beautifully smooth.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Very rarely get frosting on set honey.
I find the temp of the honey when jarred is the critical part not the jars.
If the honey is too cold you get frosting.
Just what I have found through a process of elimination.