Frame + foundation construction

[Hachi]

When I've made in advance both my super and brood frames with foundation they seem to "buckle" before use which I've noticed the old bee's don't seem to like.

Expanding as I am to nearer 40 hives next season with my current hives all needing frame rotation out of the older darker brood frames etc, coupled with having a busy full time job, means I need to build my frames in advance this winter.

Now, I think the "buckling" is because the width of the sheet or of the wooden frame, or collectively both, seem to be the problem. Now recognising there is a manufacturing "tolerance" [and probably more so in the 2nds frames I buy] inherent in all the wooden and wax components there is a number of ways I can overcome this annoying problem and they are:

1. Trim a couple of Mil off one or both sides of the foundation so in effect not having the wax in the slots/groves down the side frames?
2. Do not put in the foundation until needed?

Option 1 is easy enough
Option 2 is ok but not ideal during peak hive activity

So, what methods do you use to overcome this problem?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Hi Hachi, I've started using the embedded wire on my frames.
Google bee master. Com. there's some good information on there or try embedded wire technique.

I would just trim the foundation down the sides, wedge it. Then your good to go after drilling holes through the frame and wiring the frame.

You can buy the frames already wired for foundation.

Ive had problems with wax this year and 2nd frames..

 

[Somerford]

A number of reasons for it happening -

the place you're storing them in is fluctuating in temperature
the wax is too wide for the frames
the frames aren't square (2nds) grooves not consistent
the wax is rolled too thinly / the frame wire is lighter grade

All problems I've had tbh in the past.

While it makes sense to get ahead and make frames over winter I try and leave it as late as possible (feb) to wax them up but even then it can still be an issue.

Embedded wire can help, but slows you down. The old 'Taylors' crimped vertical wired foundation always seemed to be more robust - but savings to be made buying unwired foundation over time.

from memory you use commercials - I see more movement in larger sheets of foundation esp langstroth and 14x12 than national, this could also be a factor.

Store in open crates ( supermarket grape trays ) or in the boxes in a cool place seems to help.

good luck !

 

[Hachi]

Hi Hachi, I've started using the embedded wire on my frames.
Google bee master. Com. there's some good information on there or try embedded wire technique.

I would just trim the foundation down the sides, wedge it. Then your good to go after drilling holes through the frame and wiring the frame.

You can buy the frames already wired for foundation.

Ive had problems with wax this year and 2nd frames..

Sorry Mark should have been more clear, its all wired foundation.

 

[MuswellMetro]

also storing wax too long in hot conditions means it flows and the sheets get bigger, 1st grade frames are no better if they are stored in a warm dry place as all wood shrinks, i have often been called by beginner swho have stored their flat pack beehive in the centrally heated house and the sides have bowed..dumped it in a water butt for a day then let it dry in the shade with a brick on it,,,sides straight

 

[MuswellMetro]

Sorry Mark should have been more clear, its all wired foundation.

i make my frames in winter without wax and ony with one bottom bar, easy to slide in the wax,nail the wedge and final bottom bar, only problem is bendy wax on hot days so i put it flat in the fridge for an hour and take out a few sheets at a time so slides in the groove easy

 

[Hebeegeebee]

A MM, I make up frames in advance. Occasionally I have to trim a little off one side - easily done with a stanley knife.

 

[Wingy]

Done most of these methods, now running both Langstroth & Nationals (don’t ask long story big headache) I found wiring frames & using a power source to embed unwired wax was best but slow. Easy to melt the old wax out without dismantling the frames & pop a new sheet in, becomes a pain when the wires break during this process. As such I started using the plastic wax coated foundation this season & found it brilliant, bees took to it with no hesitation. I’ve just finished putting together 100 Langstroth, have another 100 to do & 100 Nationals (all brood) so much quicker and doesn’t buckle under normal temperature fluctuations

 

[Hachi]

Done most of these methods, now running both Langstroth & Nationals (don’t ask long story big headache) I found wiring frames & using a power source to embed unwired wax was best but slow. Easy to melt the old wax out without dismantling the frames & pop a new sheet in, becomes a pain when the wires break during this process. As such I started using the plastic wax coated foundation this season & found it brilliant, bees took to it with no hesitation. I’ve just finished putting together 100 Langstroth, have another 100 to do & 100 Nationals (all brood) so much quicker and doesn’t buckle under normal temperature fluctuations

Very interesting Wingy, I played with plastic from Bee eqpt and had mixed results. I think it would have been better had I rolled more wax on them to begin with. Sadly, I haven't found Comrcl plastic foundation but having said that I haven't really looked yet. Like you I, was running Comrcl & national for a few years and it drove me mad, so much so, I changed over completely this year. All I had to worry about was frame size too lol. I found national boxes just a little too small but lets not open that can of worms here .

I've ordered my wax and frames and will reduce the width of the sheet [as this is the only fixed/critical measurement] this year and see how it goes.

 

[MuswellMetro]

A MM, I make up frames in advance. Occasionally I have to trim a little off one side - easily done with a stanley knife.

worst wax i had was three years ago and it was too narrow, my three sources of wax all use the same firm in Hastings and i think the mis measured cutting as the next year all three sources wax was fine

 

[MuswellMetro]

Very interesting Wingy, I played with plastic from Bee eqpt and had mixed results. I think it would have been better had I rolled more wax on them to begin with. Sadly, I haven't found Comrcl plastic foundation but having said that I haven't really looked yet. Like you I, was running Comrcl & national for a few years and it drove me mad, so much so, I changed over completely this year. All I had to worry about was frame size too lol. I found national boxes just a little too small but lets not open that can of worms here .

I've ordered my wax and frames and will reduce the width of the sheet [as this is the only fixed/critical measurement] this year and see how it goes.

Remember that if the NBU find EFB or AFB and you have plastic foundation on the hive in your supers or brood they are under instruction not to burn plastic....so you have to pay for them to be disposed of as clinical waste (expensive!!)

 

[Hachi]

Remember that if the NBU find EFB or AFB and you have plastic foundation on the hive in your supers or brood they are under instruction not to burn plastic....so you have to pay for them to be disposed of as clinical waste (expensive!!)

An interesting point MM, worth remembering. That must have a major impact on suppliers who make and sell plastic frames and foundation? Especially as their popularity is growing.

 

[Finman]

Cut the edge of Foundationin so, that sheet has space to enlarge in the heat of the hive. 10 mm gap is good above lower list.

Take care too, that Foundationin has gap to expand horisontaly.

 

[Wingy]

Remember that if the NBU find EFB or AFB and you have plastic foundation on the hive in your supers or brood they are under instruction not to burn plastic....so you have to pay for them to be disposed of as clinical waste (expensive!!)

Something I hadn’t even considered thanks for the heads up

 

[Hachi]

Cut the edge of Foundationin so, that sheet has space to enlarge in the heat of the hive. 10 mm gap is good above lower list.

Take care too, that Foundationin has gap to expand horisontaly.

Cheers Finny

 

[Ian123]

i make my frames in winter without wax and ony with one bottom bar, easy to slide in the wax,nail the wedge and final bottom bar, only problem is bendy wax on hot days so i put it flat in the fridge for an hour and take out a few sheets at a time so slides in the groove easy

As above I’ll make them up and save the foundation in the pack until nearer the time. Have also had some particularly crap wax this year.

 

[Murox]

An interesting point MM, worth remembering. That must have a major impact on suppliers who make and sell plastic frames and foundation? Especially as their popularity is growing.

Not with me they're not. I generally try to keep petrochemical products and such out of the hive.

 

[Hachi]

Not with me they're not. I generally try to keep petrochemical products and such out of the hive.

Cool. I was merely commenting on what I saw last year [2019] at Tradex, there was big crowds at the stand selling them.

 

[Murox]

Cool. I was merely commenting on what I saw last year [2019] at Tradex, there was big crowds at the stand selling them.

How odd. Of course there are there are “biobased” alternatives to plastics, perhaps they are made from those ??

 

[Hachi]

nah I worked my way to the front and handled them, they looked just plain old petrochemical plastic to me. They weren't being marketed as anything else or special from memory just easier to clean etc than wood.