Foundationless frames

[3bees]

Last year there was a great thread about using foundationless frames.

I have decided to give it a try with some of my colonies this year, so need to plan ahead.

A question for those of you running this configuration - all things being equal (I know strength of colony is important etc), can you shook swarm a colony into a box with wired, foundationless frames?

 

[domino]

I'd be keen to see how this works out.

 

[Tremyfro]

I used quite a lot of foundationless frames last year. It was fascinating to see how quickly the comb was built. I used mainly Beebits plastic frames. They have two ribs vertically which help support the comb. Also useful for cutting out the comb for comb honey. I rather tentatively spun some of the frames in the extractor...to find to my delight...no problems at all. Extraction easy...no broken comb. So this year I have some comb all ready for the bees to fill.
I put them in the supers alternating them with foundation frames...to get them drawn out straight. Some of them I put little strips of foundation to give the bees a start.

 

[oliver90owner]

Why 'shook swarm' when there are more gentle ways to transfer them?

Would work, as long as they don't abscond....

I wouldn't do it that way.

 

[DulwichGnome]

I would think about putting a frame each side of the broad a week or so before you plan to SS and use those in the centre of the new box to keep the queen safe. To make doubly sure put a QX under the box and feed.

Remember it is important when using foundation-less frames that your boxes are level, the bees will follow gravity before your frames.

Mike.

 

[peteinwilts]

Why 'shook swarm' when there are more gentle ways to transfer them?

Would work, as long as they don't abscond....

I wouldn't do it that way.

I can't think of many reasons why you would want to do a shook swarm, and that would not be one of them.

I did a lot of experimentations with foundationless frames last year, and overall, was very happy with the results.

In summer, I performed a number of artificial swarms, carrying over a single frame of brood with the queen.
I had 5 frames of foundation on one side of the frame, and five foundationless frames on the other, and fed.

EVERY colony I performed this on built on the foundationless side first.

It is possible that they did not like the brand of foundation, or may have preferred it after wafting with a hair dryer or using sugar spray.

Approximately, 1 in 10 failed as it was built at a angle or with cross braced comb. 14x12 also worked, but was more prone to failure due to the area, and suffered more with cross brace

 

[rickyd20]

EVERY colony I performed this on built on the foundationless side first.

It is possible that they did not like the brand of foundation, or may have preferred it after wafting with a hair dryer or using sugar spray.

Approximately, 1 in 10 failed as it was built at a angle or with cross braced comb. 14x12 also worked, but was more prone to failure due to the area, and suffered more with cross brace

Very interesting to see they preferred no foundation.
If you were to use already drawn combs, instead of foundation, do you think this would this stop the cross braced comb?
Also, I suppose you had to wire the 14x12 frames in some way?

 

[mintmoth]

EVERY colony I performed this on built on the foundationless side first.

It is possible that they did not like the brand of foundation, or may have preferred it after wafting with a hair dryer or using sugar spray...

Perhaps it's just easier to build comb if the bees can hang underneath and do both sides at once?

 

[Fatbee]

Sounds perfectly feasible.

 

[Madge]

... can you shook swarm a colony into a box with wired, foundationless frames?

A shook swarm seems so harsh. Can't you just replace old and broodless frames with strip foundation frames? You don't have to replace them all at once.
Ps: I see others have already questioned the need for a shook swarm.

 

[3bees]

You don't have to replace them all at once.
Ps: I see others have already questioned the need for a shook swarm.

The shook swarm was not to replace all the frames, although of course that is the result. I want to carry out a shook swarm to minimise the levels of varroa, chalk brood, and remove dirty comb. Several people including a seasonal bee inspector and a virologist (a presenter at the recent SBKA lecture day) have recommended shook swarming colonies in the spring to start the year with minimal disease.

I just wanted the views of beekeepers who run this system, I didn't think I would need to justify myself.

 

[pargyle]

The shook swarm was not to replace all the frames, although of course that is the result. I want to carry out a shook swarm to minimise the levels of varroa, chalk brood, and remove dirty comb. Several people including a seasonal bee inspector and a virologist (a presenter at the recent SBKA lecture day) have recommended shook swarming colonies in the spring to start the year with minimal disease.

I just wanted the views of beekeepers who run this system, I didn't think I would need to justify myself.

Well ... it's the forced equivalent of a swarm taking up residence in an empty hive so they will cope with it... My original bees were a swarm but had one frame of drawn out comb when I put them in the hive so they had a guide to start with .. if you want subsequent combs drawn straight then it's really necessary to give them a straight frame of comb to get them started.

I, personally, would not do a shook swarm ... unless you really feel your bees are unhealthy it's a waste of brood. If I was you I would pick out the frames of brood at your first/second inspection and move those across to the new box with the bees and then give them an empty frame either side of these ... most of the nurse bees will be on these frames anyway. If you put the new box where the old box was the fliers will return to it anyway.

I would dummy the hive down so that they are not heating a big empty space as they need warmth to draw the wax ... they will draw comb very quickly and then you just need to keep an eye on them and gradually add empty frames as they draw out the new ones, as they draw out one add another and move the dummy board.

You can gradually work out the old original brood combs if you feel you have to by moving them gradually outwards from the brood area and then finally taking them out altogether and replacing them with empty frames.

 

[3bees]

Thanks Pargyle, this was the sort of discussion I was hoping for.

 

[Madge]

... I didn't think I would need to justify myself.

No, you don't - but an explanation, or being clear about your question, would have meant you'll get better answers. I would not have answered the way I did had I known you intend to perform a shook swarm anyway.

 

[Finman]

L

The shook swarm was not to replace all the frames, although of course that is the result. I want to carry out a shook swarm to minimise the levels of varroa, chalk brood, and remove dirty comb. Several people including a seasonal bee inspector and a virologist (a presenter at the recent SBKA lecture day) have recommended shook swarming colonies in the spring to start the year with minimal disease.

I just wanted the views of beekeepers who run this system, I didn't think I would need to justify myself.

That system is used only in severe cases like AFB. Style to renew combs that way is wastefull and you loose your honey yield.

- chalk brood can be healed by changin the queen to resistant genepool. Do not keep sick queens in your yard.
- it is not frame changing which heals chalk brood. It is summer's heat.
- treating varroa is well documented and you have at least 10 different treatment.
- what is dirty comb? ... If it has much poo, take away and burne it. Old combs are easily renewed when you lift them over excluder and let bees emerge.

- let the bees draw new combs during good flow. It happens quickly. I often let them draw 3 boxes of new combs during main flow.

- AS is a good opportunity to get 1-2 boxes of new combs in a week.
.

 

[Finman]

.
The most , what bees need in Spring is brood. It is capital for summer. Never destroy them, if they do not have severe disease. As preventing method brood killing is nonsense. Then you are worse than any disease.

 

[Bosleeu]

I have housed a few swarms into hives with foundationless frames (except for one frame with comb, which I normally swap out a few days later with a foundationless frame).

Doing a shook swarm is pretty much the same thing.

In all cases the bees took to it well.

If you are going to use starter strips of foundation, I would make sure the top edge is straight so that all the nails go through the foundation when you hammer them in place.

Reason for this is that on a few frames the sheer weight of the bees seemed to have torn the starter strips out of the top bars. These appeared to be the frames where I have been careless with the starter strips. I now use a few more nails when I use them to hive a swarm.

I never wire my Standard National frames and they work fine. With 12x14 you definitely have to wire.

Shook swarm seems to be a widely practised thing. Yes it is a shame to see all the brood go to waste, but you are doing what you believe is right for the colony, and the decision is yours.

 

[Bosleeu]

Ps:If you can, catch the queen and release her again after the procedure, or transfer the frame that she is on initially to serve as a guide for the bees.

It feels so much better if you know she is safe

 

[oliver90owner]

EVERY-colony I performed this on built on the foundationless side first.-

Pete,

Do you run your colonies cold way? Otherwise it may not have been a fair test? A few more details would be useful.

RAB

 

[Finman]

]EVERY-colony I performed this on built on the foundationless side first.-[/

[/QUOTE]

Every colony make combs when they need them. And in nature they do combs without frames. Nothing special in that.

Foundations save honey 8 kg/comb box. In 3 boxes you save 24 kg honey, which is value 140 pounds. ... That is very expencive disease preventing. And more, with destroying brood you loose lots of honey.

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