Foundationless Frame - Comments?

[John M]

I don't know if it is acceptable to discuss an article from the latest BBKA magazine here... but I guess I will find out quickly and clearly

For those that haven't seen it, it looks like a dummy board made from thin ply (the size of a frame). Over half the area is routed out from the centre in a large rectangle with rounded corners. It is a work in progress by James Slade (Devon) and seems to be an interesting developement which I will be following with interest.

As you can see I am now in my second year of beekeeping and so have all the necessary knowledge to express a considered opinion.

Please let me know what you think

 

[Tom Bick]

A foundationless frame why stop at one or from your description some sort of altered dummy board.

I have not seen the article but plenty of people don’t bother with foundation in their framed hives myself amongst them it is far more interesting and the bees seem very happy with the arrangement but then they would.

 

[Walrus]

Hi, I read that article with interest. It all sounds fine and I wish the chap well with his experimenting. It seems to be sturdier than comb on just a top bar. For frames that need extracting I should think some wire reinforcement might be needed.
Personally I have had no problems with conventional wired foundation.

 

[victor meldrew]

The Germans cut out drone brood frames and replace empty, the bees draw fresh drone comb . (Usually these two frames are culled on alternate inspections) This system gives the bee keeper a clue into the hive mind when the cut out comb is replaced by worker celled comb !.
As for patent applied for ? don't know how this would be granted? nothing novel in my eyes ?
VM

 

[Chris Luck]

I posted these before, Dadant and Warré frames with no foundation.

Bees make the comb the way they want and crucially to the cell sizes they want.

Chris

 

[Hivemaker.]

The Germans cut out drone brood frames and replace empty, the bees draw fresh drone comb .
VM

You just like watching the IWF girl don't you John.

 

[victor meldrew]

You just like watching the IWF girl don't you John.

Hand on heart YESSSS!!!!
Top pic displays lots of wax moth larva attention
VM

 

[victor meldrew]

t For frames that need extracting I should think some wire reinforcement might be needed.
Personally I have had no problems with conventional wired foundation.

I no longer use wired foundation ! Of the two frames bust in the extractor this year , both were wired
I have colonies on 14x 12s unwired . they tolerate handling . If hive temp reaches a high enough degree to soften wax, something amiss with the ventilation ?
VM

 

[mbc]

There's no doubt foundationless frames work very well, especially when they are put in between ready drawn frames to encourage the bees to stay on the straight and narrow, however,the big question is why, when its so easy, cheap and beneficial to give the bees some foundation to work on ?

 

[victor meldrew]

Another reason for abandoning wired foundation is it's vunerability to acid damage when fumigating with Acetic .
VM

 

[victor meldrew]

There's no doubt foundationless frames work very well, especially when they are put in between ready drawn frames to encourage the bees to stay on the straight and narrow, however,the big question is why, when its so easy, cheap and beneficial to give the bees some foundation to work on ?

It removes the risk of chemical build up as the process for cleansing at the wax chandlers doesn't involve temperatures that degrade agro-chemical residues ?
VM

 

[mbc]

It removes the risk of chemical build up as the process for cleansing at the wax chandlers doesn't involve temperatures that degrade agro-chemical residues ?
VM

Its possible to source organic foundation, or make some from your own wax.
Every association should have its own press for lending to members.

 

[Chris Luck]

Top pic displays lots of wax moth larva attention

Yes, wax moths are alive and doing well in France

There's no doubt foundationless frames work very well, especially when they are put in between ready drawn frames to encourage the bees to stay on the straight and narrow, however,the big question is why, when its so easy, cheap and beneficial to give the bees some foundation to work on ?

Avoids nasties from other peoples hives and allows bees to make the cell sizes they prefer.

Another reason for abandoning wired foundation is it's vunerability to acid damage when fumigating with Acetic

.

Stainless steel wire?

Chris

 

[victor meldrew]

Its possible to source organic foundation, or make some from your own wax.
Every association should have its own press for lending to members.

Maybe but your bees will cheerfully produce organic wax foundation ?

Stainless steel wire?
I believe foundation manufacturers use monelmetal wire . Acetic acid blackens the wire normally associated with foundation .
I know of no stock items using stainless steel wire?
VM

 

[Tom Bick]

There's no doubt foundationless frames work very well, especially when they are put in between ready drawn frames to encourage the bees to stay on the straight and narrow, however,the big question is why, when its so easy, cheap and beneficial to give the bees some foundation to work on ?

That’s ok but you will get frames of almost all if not all drone comb in the foundationless frames, it will work well if you want to cull the drone.

In my experience if you want to go foundationless its best to go with all the frames foundationless from the start and give the bees a starter strip of 1 inch this will keep the bees on a straight line within the frame. Start with a shorter starter strip and then the bees can start to get artistic but its not that difficult to sort out.

“why, when its so easy, cheap and beneficial to give the bees some foundation to work on ? ”

For me its more interesting watching the bees build the combs and how they configure the hive, much cheaper than even cheap foundation and I think its beneficial to the bees to build comb than work on foundation I think foundation is beneficial to the beekeeper and not the bees.

Its not for everyone but works for me.

 

[Chris Luck]

I know of no stock items using stainless steel wire?

You may be right, I wouldn't know, anyway I only use stainless steel wire.

That’s ok but you will get frames of almost all if not all drone comb in the foundationless frames, it will work well if you want to cull the drone.

Got me there Tom, I've never come across them making drone comb like that in my hives, it seems most unnatural and wouldn't work very well for the bees in a natural setting as the brood zone expanded and contracted?

Chris

 

[Tom Bick]

Got me there Tom, I've never come across them making drone comb like that in my hives, it seems most unnatural and wouldn't work very well for the bees in a natural setting as the brood zone expanded and contracted?

Chris

Don’t expect you do chris nor do I any more but if someone was to slip in a few foundationless frames amongst foundation this will happen. I had this when I started to experiment with foundationless frames and thought five foundationless frames and six foundation frames was a way to experiment. The foundationless frames were not completely drone comb but I had something close to 40% drone across the hive and on my hives now that all frames apart from a few older frames yet to be worked out are foundationless I would say I have a max 20% drone with the obvious variations from hive to hive.

Yes the bees would not normally construct the brood nest with 40% drone comb but something obviously happened with their calculations and the foundation I think played a role in this. I have been looking close at my bees and will continue in the future regarding how they organise the hive regarding drone comb, when they prefer to build it and if any patterns become obvious.

I carried out a few simple experiments this year in that I removed sections of drone comb as part of drone cull and also to see if they would replace with drone or worker comb depending on the time of year and eight times out of ten they replaced with drone comb. I even moved frames after the drone cull to different parts of the hive and made sure I had removed all the drone even cutting into worker comb but they replaced with drone eight times out of ten. This is not meant to prove anything but is of interest to me.

 

[Chris Luck]

Oooop's, must remember in the spring to look at a hive where I dropped two frames with starter strip into the centre of a fully drawn colony.

Thanks for explaining Tom.

Chris

 

[Tom Bick]

It will be no problem Chris if you run with foundationless frames but if the hives are run on foundation I predict two frames of drone comb but will be interesting to know all the same. Two frames of drone would give you approx 20% drone and it seems the bees are happy with this so although not spread throughout the hive two frames of drone comb may not be so bad.

 

[Mr greenwood]

Thinking that the easy solution would be to use a hot knife and cut the old wax out of a frame leaving say an inch round the outside as a guide for them to build their own. Interesting if anyone does this to renew brood comb?