Finding a queen for making a split

[dto001]

Hi all,
Just a bit of assistance required I am going to make a split towards the middle of April so I was looking into it and have decided (from one of the threads here) to use Wally Shaws method but the problem arises that I can't find the Queen, looking during my first inspection, i have also seen a couple of double eggs only 3 sets of double eggs. (But there is capped brood larvae and eggs)
Does this mean anything? As I have read this is a sign of a laying worker.
Also is there any tricks for finding the queen?
And Wally Shaw says if you can't find the queen you can shake the bees in to a brood box with the frames to be removed For the split put a queen excluder on top and then place the other frames in a brood box on top. Has anyone tried this? How do you know you have the queen for definite maybe she can fit through the queen excluder?
Excuse the long post

Cheers

 

[birdsandbees]

Hi all,
Just a bit of assistance required I am going to make a split towards the middle of April so I was looking into it and have decided (from one of the threads here) to use Wally Shaws method but the problem arises that I can't find the Queen, looking during my first inspection, i have also seen a couple of double eggs only 3 sets of double eggs. (But there is capped brood larvae and eggs)
Does this mean anything? As I have read this is a sign of a laying worker.
Cheers

I don't think a few multiple eggs in cells is anything to worry about early in the season, queens boosted into a laying frenzy may well deposit a few additional eggs so start with.
elusive queens are a bugger! I've got a couple that seem very good at playing hide and seek even when marked I have trouble seeing them so as long as I see evidence of her being there I don't worry too much, try separating the fames into pairs with a gap between each pair, then look in between each pair as she will likely be hiding in between one of the pairs. (just something I have done before)

 

[pargyle]

If you are really struggling to find the queen then move the hive four feet or so to one side, when they are flying strongly, put an empty brood box where the hive was ... take a frame of stores out of the box which you think has the queen in it - make sure the queen is definitely not on there and put it in the new box, do the same with a couple of other frames of stores. You will then end up with a few frames of brood (and the queen) in your original box. The flying bees will return to the 'new' box in the original location of the hive and after about an hour you will end up with the queen somewhere on a few frames with just the bees that are not flying. You can then do the trick of putting the frames left in there in pairs and because there will be so much less bees for her to hide amongst she will be easier to spot. Once you have found her pop her in a queen cage and you can do what you like with what you have ...

Although, frankly, if you want to make a split just get a Nuc, take a frame with eggs on it, complete with the Nurse bees - put it in the Nuc along with some frames of stores and a frame of capped brood. Three days later have a look in - the queen will not be in the hive where they are building a queen cell or two ... easy. New queen on her way in one of the boxes. You can then balance the bees by moving frames of brood around.

 

[Poly Hive]

You want three pairs of combs and none of them touching a wall. The point here is to create three dark places for her to hide in as she is not keen on the light.

Having set it up, go away and leave it for 20 minutes to give her time to settle and find the dark.

If you are really struggling have you some one with good experience to help you? Shaking bees through an excluder is rough on them and not to be recommended in my view.

If yo use the search function on the forum and use "queen finding" I think you will find a fair bit of advice there.

PH

 

[Millet]

Hi all,
Just a bit of assistance required I am going to make a split towards the middle of April so I was looking into it and have decided (from one of the threads here) to use Wally Shaws method but the problem arises that I can't find the Queen, looking during my first inspection, i have also seen a couple of double eggs only 3 sets of double eggs. (But there is capped brood larvae and eggs)
Does this mean anything? As I have read this is a sign of a laying worker.
Also is there any tricks for finding the queen?
And Wally Shaw says if you can't find the queen you can shake the bees in to a brood box with the frames to be removed For the split put a queen excluder on top and then place the other frames in a brood box on top. Has anyone tried this? How do you know you have the queen for definite maybe she can fit through the queen excluder?
Excuse the long post

Cheers

This is a picture of what a laying worker done in one of my hives last year.

 

[enrico]

Sure they hadnt left the rice from the previous nights Chinese lying around.

 

[drex]

Your queen finding skills will improve, but you do not actually need to find the queen in this instance. Just divide up the frames making sure you have eggs in both the boxes., along the lines of Pargyle above. The lot who end up with the queen will just get on with it, and the other lot will build queen cells. You can then buy a queen and introduce her ( having knocked down all the cells) or just thin the cells down to one or two and let them raise their own queen. I have used a QX in the past to " sieve bees" but as PH says they do not like it.
There are many different tricks to try to find a queen which you will find on here or in the books. The most important things I do are to use little or no smoke, be even slower and calmer than normal, and to go in with the sole purpose of finding her ( it is easy to get distracted) and no other purpose. A " will do" attitude of mind also helps. I do not actually look for the queen, but for "something different" - a bee that stands out because of the way she moves or other bees treat her etc.

 

[Millet]

Sure they hadnt left the rice from the previous nights Chinese lying around.

 

[dto001]

Cheers for the advice
I could have explained the method wrong (or picked it up wrong ) but I think you only shake them into the brood box them put the QE on then the upper brood box and the nurse bees come up to the brood/ larvae and the queen stays in the bottom box with the 3 frames for the nuc. I assume this takes away the swarm instinct (as much as it can)
But I'll definitely put frames of eggs in both just incase

 

[dto001]

������ its definitely not a laying worker then probably just from the previous nights Chinese

 

[pargyle]

Cheers for the advice������������
I could have explained the method wrong (or picked it up wrong ) but I think you only shake them into the brood box them put the QE on then the upper brood box and the nurse bees come up to the brood/ larvae and the queen stays in the bottom box with the 3 frames for the nuc. I assume this takes away the swarm instinct (as much as it can)
But I'll definitely put frames of eggs in both just incase

No.. the queen excluder method is that you put a queen excluder on top of a brood box with (ideally) drawn frames in it, you then put an empty brood box on top of that and you systematically shake each frame of bees off into the empty box ... when you have cleared all the frames (and put them into another box to keep the bees off them !) then you also shake all the bees left in the original brood box into the 'seive' ... the workers (you hope) will go down into the bottom brood box and the queen (and any drones usually) end up on the top of the queen excluder trying to get down to join the rest of the colony.

a) You need a lot of boxes.
b) There's every chance you will end up with the queen in the grass
c) The bees hate it
d) It doesn't stop there as you then have to put it all back together, basically reversing everything you have done (unless you want the bees onto completely new frames).
e) It has absolutely no bearing on swarm control ... or anything else for that matter !

Stupid idea/process ... and if you have a small queen it sometimes doesn't work anyway !!!

 

[Robbo8916]

I wasn't very good at spotting queens when I first started last year either. I got a lot of practice due to the asbo hive going through 4 queens in as many months! The trick I was taught is look for the LEGS.

Once you can spot the legs you will find it surprisingly easy, or at least I do. Practice on pictures too, see what you need to be looking for. I know it isn't anything like the real thing but it helped me to know what to look for. When I hived my nuc yesterday I did fail to spot the queen but eggs etc told me she was there somewhere, she is marked (by me so not the neatest) and I still didn't see her.

I was also told rather than doing what we naturally do, looking at each bee individually, and just scan the frame from side to side top to bottom, the activity around the Queen and thew way she moves differently tends to jump out at you.

Incidentally when I did the split last year I chanced it and just separated the colony in half. Turned out that either I damaged or lost the queen as both ended up with new queens, which was a good way to test my queen spotting skills.

Little story then I will shut up, towards autumn I knew the cedar colony had got a nee queen so Greg and I inspected. As we had seen BIAS we decided there was a mated Queen in there. As we spotted her she decided to bog off and took flight. Greg's reaction was ninja like as he caught her in mid air, we clipped and marked her quickly.

 

[Robbo8916]

A couple of queen pics for you. One marked and a couple unmarked.

The last one is an interesting one if you can spot the odd thing about it. Dunno if they help?

 

[Uncle Betty]

This is a picture of what a laying worker done in one of my hives last year.

'The books' say that a sign of laying workers would be eggs deposited on the side of the cell, rather than in the base.

Clearly, a picture is worth a thousand words, so thanks for posting that.

 

[Uncle Betty]

the problem arises that I can't find the Queen,...
Also is there any tricks for finding the queen?
Cheers

To add to what others have already said -

my habit is that as I am removing a frame, I scan the face of the next frame still in the box.

If she was between the two, she may well be trying to dart for cover. Costs no time to do it.

I do believe in the advice already given, to look at lots of pictures of queens, try to pick them out etc

Your tuning your mind into what stands out, with just a quick scan.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Most people have said it all. Presuming you have your frames warm way get to look at the face of the comb next in line for being inspected then the face away from you on the frame you have in your hands. It amazing how many beginners find the queen in the very last frame they look at
If you can get away without smoke when looking for your queen that might stop her running and hiding where you can't see her. If I have to use smoke in this instance I waft a little under the OMF not the top. Whenever I have spotted the queen it has almost always been out of the corner of my eye.Robbo is right, legs and movement are different.

 

[dto001]

Cheers all I opened the hive yesterday and found her on the 5th frame. Thanks again for all the advice

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why are you splitting them so early?

 

[dto001]

Why are you splitting them so early?

Not splitting them for another couple of weeks just trying to find the Queen before I do. Trying to do some swarm control

 

[colinc]

Texas Beeworks have a find the queen series of photos on instagram which is a useful training tool. Definitely see a difference in how quickly people spot queens sometimes they are just glaringly obvious. We had three queen+ colonies after winter but it was only the one marked queen who was always likely to hide and not be found. The unmarked ones always seem more obvious for some reason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro