Fermenting honey issue

[The Poot in Somerset]

I have four jars among twenty from one batch, starting to ferment.
I used white plastic lids and have noticed they don't have an inner seal to them - unlike the metal lids. Has anyone experienced a similar issue and could it be down to a poor seal between jar and lid?
The jars and lids were bought from Thrones.

 

[Angry_Mob]

I have four jars among twenty from one batch, starting to ferment.
I used white plastic lids and have noticed they don't have an inner seal to them - unlike the metal lids. Has anyone experienced a similar issue and could it be down to a poor seal between jar and lid?
The jars and lids were bought from Thrones.

Do you use a Honey Refractometer before jarring?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do you use a Honey Refractometer before jarring?

If four jars have started the others may not be far behind, but if the lid was screwed down as usual it's unlikely to be the lid at fault.

I check readings at the point of extraction and label each bucket. Honey at 19% or above is risky and I mix it with a bucket of 15 or 16% to lower the high reading.

Nothing wrong with eating fermented honey; I package it separately and price it at about £10/lb. in small plastic buckets. Sells well, though I don't have it often (one year I had a fair bit: took honey off late from an apiary during a wet autumn) and claim no health benefits for fermented honey.

 

[SteveG]

I sadly had one batch of plastic lids delivered last season and couple of the jars I've opened recently have fermenting smell, others with metal lids all fine. All checked before jarred with refractometer...

 

[ShinySideUp]

Can't say I check for water content. If it's capped then it's good enough for the bees so it's good enough for me. Any uncapped frames get put underneath the brood boxes for winter feed. I always use metal lids and never reuse either the lids or the jars.

 

[B+.]

<snip>
Nothing wrong with eating fermented honey; I package it separately and price it at about £10/lb. in small plastic buckets. Sells well, though I don't have it often (one year I had a fair bit: took honey off late from an apiary during a wet autumn) and claim no health benefits for fermented honey.

I suggest that you take a look at Schedule 1 8(b) of The Honey (England) Regulation 2015 on page 9 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1348/pdfs/uksi_20151348_en.pdf ).

"8. It must not—
(a) have any foreign tastes or odours;
(b) have begun to ferment;
(c) have an artificially changed acidity;
(d) have been heated in such a way that the natural enzymes have been either destroyed or
significantly inactivated."

You would have to label it as "Bakers Honey" and sell it as such.

 

[ericbeaumont]

You would have to label it as "Bakers Honey" and sell it as such.

I do.

 

[B+.]

I do.

I'm surprised that you are able to sell it at that price. Bakers honey is usually considered sub-standard

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Do you use a Honey Refractometer before jarring?

Yes.
My hunch is the lids without the seal.
I've checked all other jams, marmalades and conserves in our cupboards and they all have seals in the lids.
I will only use metal ones from here on.

 

[enrico]

In have found over the last two years that if I put frames in a super that have had had honey in over winter in storage and smell as though they are fermenting that not only do they taint the crop for that year and make all the jars smell as though they are fermenting but they also seem to start them fermenting despite water levels. I have never done this until I read on this forum that the bees will clear it out. They don't......
From now on I will always rinse these frames in warm water first and get rid of any smell.
Could this be your problem Poot?
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In have found over the last two years that if I put frames in a super that have had had honey in over winter in storage and smell as though they are fermenting that not only do they taint the crop for that year and make all the jars smell as though they are fermenting but they also seem to start them fermenting despite water levels.

Never had that issue and the super stores smells like Buckley's brewery when I start sorting them out in spring.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

In have found over the last two years that if I put frames in a super that have had had honey in over winter in storage and smell as though they are fermenting that not only do they taint the crop for that year and make all the jars smell as though they are fermenting but they also seem to start them fermenting despite water levels. I have never done this until I read on this forum that the bees will clear it out. They don't......
From now on I will always rinse these frames in warm water first and get rid of any smell.
Could this be your problem Poot?
E

Oh heck Enrico,
The honey was extracted last year and, like you I hadn't stored wet extracted supers over Winter up to then - but having read about Winter storage on here I did this last Winter! So currently on the hives are supers with over wintered honey!
What I don't understand is why only four jars are affected out of a box full, which makes me suspect the jar / lid seal.

I've checked the supers fitted at my last inspection and I was pleased that they had been cleaned up really well, but I don't have much of a sense of smell unfortunately.

All the best and thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In have found over the last two years that if I put frames in a super that have had had honey in over winter in storage and smell as though they are fermenting that not only do they taint the crop for that year and make all the jars smell as though they are fermenting but they also seem to start them fermenting despite water levels.
E

Never happened to me either and I’ve been storing super frames wet for 13 years

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh heck Enrico,
The honey was extracted last year and, like you I hadn't stored wet extracted supers over Winter up to then - but having read about Winter storage on here I did this last Winter! So currently on the hives are supers with over wintered honey!
What I don't understand is why only four jars are affected out of a box full, which makes me suspect the jar / lid seal.

I've checked the supers fitted at my last inspection and I was pleased that they had been cleaned up really well, but I don't have much of a sense of smell unfortunately.

All the best and thanks for the suggestion.

I wouldnt' put it down to supers being stored wet overwinter, thousands of beekeepers do it without an issue - including most commercials.
I can se the beginnings of the next BBKA perpetuated myth here

 

[Antipodes]

The Poot...it is an interesting one.
Do you have a recollection of the initial water content of the honey and/or whether it was from nectar collected relatively quickly and capped quickly by the bees?

 

[Poly Hive]

Relying on the bees to correctly judge the water content prior to capping is frankly a disaster waiting to happen. For the sake of £16 do go and buy a refractometer.

I remember a tale (when refractometers were rare and expensive) that someone consulted with the college advisor and the honey was at 24% and CAPPED.

PH

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

The Poot...it is an interesting one.
Do you have a recollection of the initial water content of the honey and/or whether it was from nectar collected relatively quickly and capped quickly by the bees?

The honey I jarred last year was 17 percent on a new refractometer. I only jarred up two extraction sessions and both were later in the Summer, not Spring honey, so not collected and capped particularly quickly.

 

[beeno]

In have found over the last two years that if I put frames in a super that have had had honey in over winter in storage and smell as though they are fermenting that not only do they taint the crop for that year and make all the jars smell as though they are fermenting but they also seem to start them fermenting despite water levels. I have never done this until I read on this forum that the bees will clear it out. They don't......
From now on I will always rinse these frames in warm water first and get rid of any smell.
Could this be your problem Poot?
E

Thanks for bringing up this issue. I have never been inclined to store wet frames as it does not seem hygenic and fermented honey is poisonous to the bees so why would you want them to clear it up!

 

[Swarm]

Thanks for bringing up this issue. I have never been inclined to store wet frames as it does not seem hygenic and fermented honey is poisonous to the bees so why would you want them to clear it up!

Quite frankly, that's tripe. How on earth do many thousands of colonies manage? They should all be dying from wet super syndrome.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks for bringing up this issue. I have never been inclined to store wet frames as it does not seem hygenic and fermented honey is poisonous to the bees so why would you want them to clear it up!

Hygienic?
My bees drink from the farmyard cow pat puddles.