Failed AS

[bees knees]

2 colonies preparing to swarm recently so did AS on both. One went anyway 3 days later. The other (old q and flying bees half) seemed fine at first, building up and laying well but today saw a couple of sealed q cells and no eggs and so they must have gone too - this one just over 2 weeks after AS, must have missed the cells on previous inspection. How can we keep them put after AS? What might we have done wrong?? Swarming is early this year! Thanks for your advice

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nuc the queen. Much easier than a Pagden
If you do a Pagden you HAVE to get all the QCs bar your chosen one and revisit BOTH boxes to check for more

 

[bees knees]

Nuc the queen. Much easier than a Pagden
If you do a Pagden you HAVE to get all the QCs bar your chosen one and revisit BOTH boxes to check for more

Thanks. Can you give me a bit more detail please. Just create a nuc from the Q and some bees from same colony? Presumably leave the rest at original site?

 

[Boston Bees]

2 colonies preparing to swarm recently so did AS on both. One went anyway 3 days later. The other (old q and flying bees half) seemed fine at first, building up and laying well but today saw a couple of sealed q cells and no eggs and so they must have gone too - this one just over 2 weeks after AS, must have missed the cells on previous inspection. How can we keep them put after AS? What might we have done wrong?? Swarming is early this year! Thanks for your advice

Could you tell us what you actually did?

"AS" could mean any one of a variety of different measures

Then we can spot what might have been the problem

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks. Can you give me a bit more detail please. Just create a nuc from the Q and some bees from same colony? Presumably leave the rest at original site?

Once you have spotted queen cells select one open cell. Mark the frame
Take the queen on the frame she is on. Make sure there are no queen cells on it. Put that in a nuc box and add a frame of capped (preferably emerging) brood again making sure there are no queen cells. Add a frame of food and a frame of foundation and a drawn frame if you have it. If not then foundation will do
Shake a couple of frames worth of bees in. I often use a few super frames but nurse bees from the brood box are good.
DO NOT shake the frame with your marked queen cell.
Shake the bees off the other frames and remove every other queen cell.
Make the box up with foundation and put the top back on.
Go back in a week to remove all the other queen cells the bees make. Leave alone for three weeks
Keep an eye on the nuc stores as they have no foragers for a while.

 

[bees knees]

Could you tell us what you actually did?

"AS" could mean any one of a variety of different measures

Then we can spot what might have been the problem

Yes, pagdens I think. Both colonies had early swarming signs. A few cups/cells with eggs in, possibly some RJ - full boxes - would have previously removed and rechecked but been caught out in the past by not reacting quick enough so decided to get in and split both. Queens found in both and placed in new box, original site so flying bees could return. Left a couple of frames of stores in each plus foundation, no brood. Should I have left them a frame of brood? Some drawn comb? 4 days later alerted to a swarm which turned out to be one of these, all gone - at first couldn’t work it out as bees coming and going and on the frame of stores in the hive but must have been robbers. Left other half to inspect a week later - apparently rest all ok. Inspected today (16 days post AS) - other halves both have a hatched q cell which we had left and marked and seem fine. The remaining original colony had 2 sealed q cells and no eggs - not as many bees as before - presumably also scarpered. Have inspected carefully and left the best one. Tips for next time please! Tempted to go down the nuc road… thanks

 

[bees knees]

Yes, pagdens I think. Both colonies had early swarming signs. A few cups/cells with eggs in, possibly some RJ - full boxes - would have previously removed and rechecked but been caught out in the past by not reacting quick enough so decided to get in and split both. Queens found in both and placed in new box, original site so flying bees could return. Left a couple of frames of stores in each plus foundation, no brood. Should I have left them a frame of brood? Some drawn comb? 4 days later alerted to a swarm which turned out to be one of these, all gone - at first couldn’t work it out as bees coming and going and on the frame of stores in the hive but must have been robbers. Left other half to inspect a week later - apparently rest all ok. Inspected today (16 days post AS) - other halves both have a hatched q cell which we had left and marked and seem fine. The remaining original colony had 2 sealed q cells and no eggs - not as many bees as before - presumably also scarpered. Have inspected carefully and left the best one. Tips for next time please! Tempted to go down the nuc road… thanks

By left “other half” to inspect a week later, I’m referring to my spouse here, not a half of a colony - just in case that has confused anyone!

 

[Boston Bees]

Yes, pagdens I think. Both colonies had early swarming signs. A few cups/cells with eggs in, possibly some RJ - full boxes - would have previously removed and rechecked but been caught out in the past by not reacting quick enough so decided to get in and split both. Queens found in both and placed in new box, original site so flying bees could return. Left a couple of frames of stores in each plus foundation, no brood. Should I have left them a frame of brood? Some drawn comb? 4 days later alerted to a swarm which turned out to be one of these, all gone - at first couldn’t work it out as bees coming and going and on the frame of stores in the hive but must have been robbers. Left other half to inspect a week later - apparently rest all ok. Inspected today (16 days post AS) - other halves both have a hatched q cell which we had left and marked and seem fine. The remaining original colony had 2 sealed q cells and no eggs - not as many bees as before - presumably also scarpered. Have inspected carefully and left the best one. Tips for next time please! Tempted to go down the nuc road… thanks

With a Pagden, you generally move the queen over on the frame of brood she is on, yes. If by chance she isn't on a frame of brood, you would move a frame of brood over separately. This frame of brood "locks" the queen and flying bees to the new box at least initially. The crucial thing is that there must be no QCs on this frame of brood.

Pagdens' artificial swarm - The Apiarist

It may be that, by removing all brood from the new box (on the original location), the flying bees simply went "well, we wanted to swarm, and we seem to have done so, since all the brood has gone, but we don't like this new place, so let's go somewhere else - there's nothing keeping us here"

With the other one (that took 2 weeks to leave), they simply just reared queen cells and you didn't spot them. That can happen with Padgens.

The issue with Pagdens is that you are leaving the queen and the flying bees (who drive the swarm process) on the original location, so the risk is that they never really lose their swarm fever. Perhaps that's why some people report quite a high failure rate with Pagdens (i.e. quite a high incidence of immediate queen cells in the box with the queen in)?

 

[Finman]

If you do the AS onto ready combs, I have seen that in 30% cases swarming fever continues in the AS. They continue queen cell building. They do new queen cells.

If you put AS onto foundations, the colony starts to draw combs after couple of days and the queen starts to lay after 3 days.

 

[bees knees]

So what is everyone’s optimal frames to put in with the queen in an AS? Brood, stores, foundation, comb, number? Do you feed and if so how and when? Do you use a QE underneath? Appreciate that whatever you do it can fail but what does everyone think gives it the best chance of success? Thanks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When I've done a Pagden its one frame that the queen is on, foundation and the supers.
If there is more than one super, depending on what's in the split I might give them a super too.

 

[Finman]

So what is everyone’s optimal frames to put in with the queen in an AS? Brood, stores, foundation, comb, number? Do you feed and if so how and when? Do you use a QE underneath? Appreciate that whatever you do it can fail but what does everyone think gives it the best chance of success? Thanks.

1 brood frame + queen
2-3 food frames
Foundations.

Bees clean the food frames for laying and they use food in drawing combs.

I do not mind to feed swarm any more with syrup.

 

[Moody]

When I've done a Pagden its one frame that the queen is on, foundation and the supers.
If there is more than one super, depending on what's in the split I might give them a super too.

I did this with the Pagden. However, the bees are not drawing comb on the foundation. It's been 4 weeks. Has one super on with 40% nector filled.

How can I get them to draw comb?

 

[Finman]

2 colonies preparing to swarm recently so did AS on both. One went anyway 3 days later. The other (old q and flying bees half) seemed fine at first, building up and laying well but today saw a couple of sealed q cells and no eggs and so they must have gone too - this one just over 2 weeks after AS, must have missed the cells on previous inspection. How can we keep them put after AS? What might we have done wrong?? Swarming is early this year! Thanks for your advice

I bet that you used drawn combs. If you use foundations and laying queen on them, it stops swarmimg fever.

Another question is the brood hive. It still has swarming fever.

 

[Finman]

I did this with the Pagden. However, the bees are not drawing comb on the foundation. It's been 4 weeks. Has one super on with 40% nector filled.

How can I get them to draw comb?

If you put foundations + one box of full drawn super box, bees do not need to draw foundations.

AS has lost already half of its workers for their age.

 

[Moody]

If you put foundations + one box of full drawn super box, bees do not need to draw foundations.

AS has lost already half of its workers for their age.

Ahhh thats exactly what's happening.
What should I do?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I did this with the Pagden. However, the bees are not drawing comb on the foundation. It's been 4 weeks. Has one super on with 40% nector filled.

How can I get them to draw comb?

Is there a flow?
Bees won't use stored honey to draw wax

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you put foundations + one box of full drawn super box, bees do not need to draw foundations.

Why?
The queen needs to lay somewhere and if you have an excluder on it's not in the super. So what do you do if there is no nectar flow?

 

[Moody]

Is there a flow?
Bees won't use stored honey to draw wax

No flow at the moment. They haven't been filling the super.

 

[Finman]

Why?
The queen needs to lay somewhere and if you have an excluder on it's not in the super. So what do you do if there is no nectar flow?

When you make an AS on foundations, bees start to draw very quickly them, because they need combs.

The queen starts to lay on third day im the AS. Not before.

Your first thing was to cut swarming fever and you do not need to think, what happens to yield. As you saw, the swarms flew away.

And do not put the queen into a small box. The workers need the queen and they happily draw the combs that the queen can lay.

I have put to the AS partly and bees do not wraw the goundations.

Yes, I know it. I have solved these details during 45 years. If you are interested about bee things.