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Boston Bees 

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At taste of Sovereign freedom:


Interesting that Australia credits the EU for 'persuading' China to allow an investigation into the origins of the Covid pandemic.

Can't see the UK applying swinging tariffs against China to stop practices such as steel dumping.
Sorry, I stopped clicking on shortened/anonymised URLs years ago, and would recommend others do too. I like knowing roughly which website I am being directed to before going there, and shortening URLs serves no purpose anymore (there used to be some benefits on Facebook and Twitter, but even these have now been removed).

This isn't for a minute saying that the argument being made on whatever website this is isn't valid. Would you mind posting with full URLs for this and future posts, to aid the discussion?
 
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madasafish 

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I have always had the feeling that Germany has manged to achieve by stealth what Hitler failed to achieve. Their dominance has arisen to a large extent from the fact imho that after we and our allies had bombed their productive industry to scrap metal, the Americans and their money were able to come along and finance the rebuilding of brand new factories and machinery in Germany so that the crap industrial plant we were still toiling with post-war couldn't compete. Reason - US gratitude for getting immigrant and captured German scientists to get rockets to the bloody moon? We were the losers in or out of the EU, having failed to resist the Common Market morphing into the United (?) States of Europe all the while giving away our Empire. Am happy about giving freedom to our slaves but not with the EU as it has become.

I would stop talking about slaves. Modern slavery is alive and living in the UK,
We built the West Indian plantations with slaves.
And we are the country whose colonies in Africa were the hotbeds of white supremacy.. making the US's Ku Klux Klan look a bunch of Sunday School teachers. :mad:

And the latter was in my lifetime.
 

Arfermo 

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I would stop talking about slaves. Modern slavery is alive and living in the UK,
We built the West Indian plantations with slaves.
And we are the country whose colonies in Africa were the hotbeds of white supremacy.. making the US's Ku Klux Klan look a bunch of Sunday School teachers. :mad:

And the latter was in my lifetime.
Mine too - I'm only an 86 y/o waste of space!! But I have had both my jabs!!!
 

Angularity 

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I would stop talking about slaves. Modern slavery is alive and living in the UK,
We built the West Indian plantations with slaves.
And we are the country whose colonies in Africa were the hotbeds of white supremacy.. making the US's Ku Klux Klan look a bunch of Sunday School teachers. :mad:

And the latter was in my lifetime.
Modern slavery isn't government policy; it's illegal. When the UK joined the EEC there were no legal slaves anywhere in the Commonwealth, and there aren't now.

Slaves in the West Indies were freed by 1838, by no means perfect but ahead of the curve for the rest of Europe and the US. After the Royal Navy liberated slaves on slave ships (after we banned the slave trade in 1807), they often took them to the colony at Sierra Leone. There, the original settlers, from Nova Scotia and London, bought and sold them as property. These settlers were black.

The Union of South Africa was a self-governing dominion (like Canada), and signed the Treaty of Versailles in its own right. The move to apartheid was their own idea, not imposed by any Westminster government.

Blame me for the things I've done. Don't blame me for things someone who looked a bit like me did 200 years ago.
 

domino 

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Try this:

china-deal-damages-eus-human-rights-credibility-meps-to-say

Edited to add...




I'm not sure it is a nonsense story.

“People in the United Kingdom are vaccinated with a very good vaccine produced in Europe, supported by European money,” said Peter Liese, a German MEP in Angela Merkel’s CDU party, referring to the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine.

“If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”
It's a nonsense story because its a prime example of EU derangement syndrome.

There are no export controls, there is no move to apply export controls and their dispute is with Az who are providing the vaccine at cost that was funded by many governments including the US and the UK at a higher per. capita rate than the EU. The Az vaccine is made in the UK and accounts for 65% of vaccinations.

Random MEPs saying stuff isn't EU policy, it's covering their arse because they spent months arguing about the price for something sold at cost and now are suffering from production ramp-up issues that UK production got over months ago. If you think itis EU policy you must also think when Desmond Swayne MP tells a bunch of anti-vaxxers the NHS are manipulating their COVID numbers that's government policy.

It's a non-story for the UK whipped up by a press that needs a pantomime villain.
 

madasafish 

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Modern slavery isn't government policy; it's illegal. When the UK joined the EEC there were no legal slaves anywhere in the Commonwealth, and there aren't now.

Slaves in the West Indies were freed by 1838, by no means perfect but ahead of the curve for the rest of Europe and the US. After the Royal Navy liberated slaves on slave ships (after we banned the slave trade in 1807), they often took them to the colony at Sierra Leone. There, the original settlers, from Nova Scotia and London, bought and sold them as property. These settlers were black.

The Union of South Africa was a self-governing dominion (like Canada), and signed the Treaty of Versailles in its own right. The move to apartheid was their own idea, not imposed by any Westminster government.

Blame me for the things I've done. Don't blame me for things someone who looked a bit like me did 200 years ago.

Remind me where I blamed you for anything?

Slavery is illegal in the UK today: but its policing leaves a lot to be desired: read Modern slavery in the UK - Anti-Slavery International - some of the claims are no doubt exaggerated.

The UK supported its ex colonies - South Africa and Rhodesia for years - and were extremely reluctant to do anything about either. SA introduced apartheid post 1948. In 1962 the UN imposed sanctions. It was 1986 before the UK did anything serious.
 

Boston Bees 

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It's a nonsense story because its a prime example of EU derangement syndrome.

There are no export controls, there is no move to apply export controls and their dispute is with Az who are providing the vaccine at cost that was funded by many governments including the US and the UK at a higher per. capita rate than the EU. The Az vaccine is made in the UK and accounts for 65% of vaccinations.

Random MEPs saying stuff isn't EU policy, it's covering their arse because they spent months arguing about the price for something sold at cost and now are suffering from production ramp-up issues that UK production got over months ago. If you think itis EU policy you must also think when Desmond Swayne MP tells a bunch of anti-vaxxers the NHS are manipulating their COVID numbers that's government policy.

It's a non-story for the UK whipped up by a press that needs a pantomime villain.
Bit confused Domino - the story that Angularity posted, that you are responding to, is nothing to do with vaccines. It's about a trade deal, and XinJiang. And it's from the Guardian, which is hardly a hotbed of anti-EU sentiment ....
 

domino 

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Bit confused Domino - the story that Angularity posted, that you are responding to, is nothing to do with vaccines. It's about a trade deal, and XinJiang. And it's from the Guardian, which is hardly a hotbed of anti-EU sentiment ....
You have to click to expand the quote. It has this story.

 

The Poot 

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Remind me where I blamed you for anything?

Slavery is illegal in the UK today: but its policing leaves a lot to be desired: read Modern slavery in the UK - Anti-Slavery International - some of the claims are no doubt exaggerated.

The UK supported its ex colonies - South Africa and Rhodesia for years - and were extremely reluctant to do anything about either. SA introduced apartheid post 1948. In 1962 the UN imposed sanctions. It was 1986 before the UK did anything serious.
A large number of those caught up in slavery today, are “illegals” who have to keep off the radar and thus fall into the control of organised crime and profiteering, uncaring companies unfortunately.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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A large number of those caught up in slavery today, are “illegals” who have to keep off the radar and thus fall into the control of organised crime and profiteering, uncaring companies unfortunately.
many (maybe even the majority) were actually smuggled into the country 'under the radar' already captive, they didn't fall into the slavery trap after arriving, it's a very complex 'trade', unfortunately we also see quite a few UK nationals ending up being slaves, whether they are young people with learning difficulties, or homeless runaways with nowhere to go. The current storyline on the Archers is nearer to fact than fiction.
 

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Which is saying what, that democracy in the EU is alive and well? So the commission have proposed a trade deal with China that has yet to be ratified by the Nation states and until such time as it ratified is it is just a talking point up for scrutiny. If and when the EU ratify the agreement then it might become an issue but the EU is hardening its stance with China having first tried a carrot approach which the Chinese have simply abused. I very much doubt that the agreement will be ratified so all the mock shock and horror is simply tabloid populist fodder.


Edited to add...




I'm not sure it is a nonsense story.

“People in the United Kingdom are vaccinated with a very good vaccine produced in Europe, supported by European money,” said Peter Liese, a German MEP in Angela Merkel’s CDU party, referring to the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine.

“If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”
More populist chest beating tabloid pumping rubbish.

This issue is quite simply a contractual matter between Astra Zeneca and the EU. Both the UK and the EU are in no position to intercede in mutually exclusive agreements founded in law.

Talking up conflict instead of striving for mutual collaboration in my view is dangerous especially in an era of disinformation and fake news:

 

Karol 

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Sorry, I stopped clicking on shortened/anonymised URLs years ago, and would recommend others do too. I like knowing roughly which website I am being directed to before going there, and shortening URLs serves no purpose anymore (there used to be some benefits on Facebook and Twitter, but even these have now been removed).

This isn't for a minute saying that the argument being made on whatever website this is isn't valid. Would you mind posting with full URLs for this and future posts, to aid the discussion?

ABC news on China flexing its economic power to subjugate dissent.
 

Karol 

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Yes I can see that. My mother was torn from her family to work for the German army at sixteen and liberated by the American army and eventually came to England as a refugee. My father escaped prison and worse as a Polish airforce pilot by flying to France then joining the RAF.
Quite possible that our forebears new and fought along side each other. My eldest uncle joined the RAF after escaping from the Siberian gulags. He had wanted to go to art school and was an incredible self taught artist. When he was stationed up North with the RAF he drew a pencil portrait of HRH Prince Philip which he copied from the cover of Vogue magazine. It just so happened that Prince Philip visited the barracks when my uncle was away on leave and was so taken by the drawing that HRH acquired the drawing leaving £50 in payment. It's quite something to know that a portrait drawn by my uncle might be hanging on the walls somewhere in the royal household.
 

The Poot 

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many (maybe even the majority) were actually smuggled into the country 'under the radar' already captive, they didn't fall into the slavery trap after arriving, it's a very complex 'trade', unfortunately we also see quite a few UK nationals ending up being slaves, whether they are young people with learning difficulties, or homeless runaways with nowhere to go. The current storyline on the Archers is nearer to fact than fiction.
Never thought of you as an Archers fan.....
Accept your comment - I recently read a report from the French police stating how well organised the gangs are, with brilliant logistical capabilities, arranging the arrival of inflatables from Germany to coincide with their “customers” at the right place at the right time.
Much more organised and efficient that the French police:oops:
 

ericbeaumont 

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My eldest uncle joined the RAF after escaping from the Siberian gulags.
My uncle did the same!

He told me that as the cattle trucks rumbled slowly east in 1941 they saw Messerschmitts over Minsk (good title for a book) and he reckoned they must have run out of ammunition; everybody was hoping they'd stop the train. When it reached the Siberian labour camp the family were lodged instead in a village: his uncle was a doctor and needed in the local hospital. Uncle John remembered taking autopsy notes in Russian at the age of 12, while his uncle sliced them up.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Never thought of you as an Archers fan.....
All ships radio officers have an affinity for the archers - it used to be on just before the shipping forecast on LW so it's doubtful many of us have actually listened to an episode from start to finish 😁 I tend to only listen to it if I'm in the car at the time. SWMBO listens tto them all on catchup though.

I recently read a report from the French police stating how well organised the gangs are, with brilliant logistical capabilities, arranging the arrival of inflatables from Germany to coincide with their “customers” at the right place at the right time.
Yes - and you also need to differentiate between people smugglers (the ones who just charge to take them across the channel and drop them off at Dungeness, Rye harbour, Folkestone, wherever to make their way inland.
Or
The people traffickers who bring them from all over the world to live their lives here in captivity as sex slaves, house slaves or whatever, whether children or adults.
 

Amari 

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There are people of a certain age that merge the Common Market and the European Union into one entity - in fairness .. the Common Market did morph into the EU.

I think that the common market did play some part in bringing peace and prosperity to countries in Europe that were still recovering from the aftermath of WW2 .. it created a dialogue between France and Germany and its neighbours, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. These countries were also fearful of more of the historic conflict between France and Germany - there was also the looming dominance of the Soviet Block. I'm old enough to remember the resistance from De Gaulle to the UK joining the club .. His "Non Non" resonated for years after we joined .... and the ensuing dialogue didn't see us join until Ted Heath took us in 1972. I think we benefitted from the Common Market .. it was a much less cumbersome arrangement than what followed and I think we would probably have still been within the EU if the original trade objectives that were established in the Common Market had remained the prime focus of the EU.

Unfortunately, the insistence and dominance of France and Germany within mainland Europe and the fact that the weaker countries of Europe that were allowed to join led to an ever increasing creation of an arch state of Europe. This was the antithesis of what many people wanted from a close relationship with our Friends in Europe. It is something that suits France and Germany who are now the dominant force in the EU and Germany, of course, holds the purse strings. It will be interesting to see how things develop in Europe over the next few years and whether our leaving brings the EU closer together or leads to more dissention (and there is already dissention in some countries who feel they are being dictated to by the EU).

As I've said, I voted to stay in on the basis I felt we would be better off in economic and social terms and better off in it and bringing something to the table rather than being out with no further influence ... but there were aspects of the EU that I felt were not in our best interests and certainly there will be even more centralisation coming along in the future for Europe now that we are not a moderating influence on the two big players - France and Germany. I think that the average voter saw this writing on the wall and were spooked ... I don't subscribe to the belief that the voting public were hoodwinked ... I think there was a genuine fear of the direction the EU was (and will be) travelling in.

How we will fare in the future will be dependent upon whether we are able to change; it will need a creative Government and a forward looking population and it may take some years. At present it is difficult to see anything in either of the two main parties that gives me confidence that the type of country we need to be to prosper in the future is on the horizon.
I share most of your views and voted Remain. However you say: "I don't subscribe to the belief that the voting public were hoodwinked"
I think to a certain extent we, especially the gullible (none of us of course) were: a bus touring with '£350,000,000 per week for the NHS', a claim that Remain = hordes of Turks free to enter the UK, deals that were to be 'oven-ready' and 'seamless'.
 

Amari 

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Remind me where I blamed you for anything?

Slavery is illegal in the UK today: but its policing leaves a lot to be desired: read Modern slavery in the UK - Anti-Slavery International - some of the claims are no doubt exaggerated.

The UK supported its ex colonies - South Africa and Rhodesia for years - and were extremely reluctant to do anything about either. SA introduced apartheid post 1948. In 1962 the UN imposed sanctions. It was 1986 before the UK did anything serious.
!986 was surely the year UK didn't do anything serious. That year at the annual conference, 47 Commonwealth countries voted for a motion to impose sanctions on the SA apartheid regime. Only one delegate refused: Margaret Thatcher.
 

pargyle 

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I share most of your views and voted Remain. However you say: "I don't subscribe to the belief that the voting public were hoodwinked"
I think to a certain extent we, especially the gullible (none of us of course) were: a bus touring with '£350,000,000 per week for the NHS', a claim that Remain = hordes of Turks free to enter the UK, deals that were to be 'oven-ready' and 'seamless'.
I think there was an underlying discontent in certain sections of the population and I would agree that the 'Leave' campaign played very heavily on their fears ... but I remain convinced that most of the people who voted leave had made their mind up without all the hype. If there had been no campaigning permitted on either side I think the result would have been the same. All the polls subsequent to the vote indicated that those who voted leave remained predominantly in the leave camp and some showed a hardening of their attitude when they perceived the EU as making it difficult. We should never underestimate the British Public when it comes to a vote - they may have brought us to a result that is not what some of us desired but ... gullible and hoodwinked ? No ... Misguided in their thinking - perhaps ? but who are we to derogate or deride the decision that someone made on the basis that they were not sufficiently informed.
 

Amari 

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I think there was an underlying discontent in certain sections of the population and I would agree that the 'Leave' campaign played very heavily on their fears ... but I remain convinced that most of the people who voted leave had made their mind up without all the hype. If there had been no campaigning permitted on either side I think the result would have been the same. All the polls subsequent to the vote indicated that those who voted leave remained predominantly in the leave camp and some showed a hardening of their attitude when they perceived the EU as making it difficult. We should never underestimate the British Public when it comes to a vote - they may have brought us to a result that is not what some of us desired but ... gullible and hoodwinked ? No ... Misguided in their thinking - perhaps ? but who are we to derogate or deride the decision that someone made on the basis that they were not sufficiently informed.
All we forumites are especially gifted and wise, Philip....
 
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