Quantcast

European spite?

Beekeeping Forum

Help Support Beekeeping Forum:

Status
Not open for further replies.

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
Not true, was from porterdown research laboratory, by means of the drains.
I think you mean Porton Down - it was a widely used conspiracy theory at the time, considering Porton is in Wiltshire and the 'ground Zero' for the outbreak was Northumberland (tracked back from contaminated pig meat in Essex) the story sounds a little far fetched even for a dyed in the wool tinfoil hat wearer
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
That's right "1967" if memory serves me right. Was spread unwittingly by a vet visiting farms on his round. And was contained and eradicated with out much fuss unlike the last outbreak.
Yes - a nine month 'fussless' period. Vets even being drafted in from other countries to help, road construction projects put on hold and the plant machinery commandeered to dig the burning pits and move the 434,000 dead animals - and no evidence of it being spread by any vet. The vet had been called to the farm to examine three lame pigs, he swiftly identified F&M and put the farm in quarantine, unfortunately by then two cows had been sent to market thus spreading it through the whole mart, also a quantity of skimmed mild from the farm had been fed to pids at another location
My father remembered it well, as he gave up his pig breeding sideline after it due to the financial loss he experienced due to the prolonged standstill meaning his porkers became worthless and the feed bills high
 

ericbeaumont 

Drone Bee
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
597
Location
North London, West Essex and Surrey
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
70
I'm struggling to think what would be stopping someone bringing in packages of bees from the continent via Rosslare or Dublin, being delivered to an address in NI, import notified to DAERA and then shipped again via Belfast or Larne and delivered in GB.
They've thought of that:
You cannot move goods through Northern Ireland to avoid the UK tariff or import processes. You may receive penalties if you move goods through Northern Ireland for an avoidance purpose.
 

Amari 

Drone Bee
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
299
Location
Suffolk
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
10
I've always thought driving on the left was a bit stupid. I'm going to go European and drive on the right in future.
Thanks for the warning, I'll be ready to jump/swerve clear - you're probably not far from me.
 

roche 

Field Bee
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
895
Reaction score
31
Location
Newburyish
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6
Not true, was from porterdown research laboratory, by means of the drains. And spread like wildfire due to mass incompetence of Mr Blairs government. The farmer used as a scapegoat was never prosecuted being a complete lie.
And the EU refused full compensation because of this.
That doesn't make any sense. Firstly, where is "porterdown research laboratory"?
Not disagreeing with Blairs government being incompetent, although the current lot are almost infinitely worse.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
The farmer used as a scapegoat was never prosecuted being a complete lie.
No, it's your statement that is a complete lie
(The below is from just one of many reliable sources)

The pig farmer accused of starting last year's devastating foot and mouth outbreak was yesterday ordered to be electronically tagged for three months and banned from keeping farm animals for 15 years.

Bobby Waugh, 56, who was found guilty last month of wilfully failing to alert officials when he knew his animals had the disease, was also ordered to keep an overnight curfew and pay £10,000 towards prosecution costs.

The farmer, who with his brother, Ron, ran a pig fattening unit in Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland, was also found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to pigs, feeding his animals unprocessed waste, and failing to properly dispose of animal byproducts.

The same charges against his brother are unlikely to proceed due to his ill-health.
 

Amari 

Drone Bee
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
299
Location
Suffolk
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
10
That doesn't make any sense. Firstly, where is "porterdown research laboratory"?
Not disagreeing with Blairs government being incompetent, although the current lot are almost infinitely worse.
See Post 221
 

pargyle 

Queen Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
12,024
Reaction score
2,034
Location
Fareham, Hampshire UK
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
6
Not true, was from porterdown research laboratory, by means of the drains. And spread like wildfire due to mass incompetence of Mr Blairs government. The farmer used as a scapegoat was never prosecuted being a complete lie.
And the EU refused full compensation because of this.
Not true I'm afraid - this was fake news at the time... There is the original report on line (if you care to read it) following the inquiry after the outbreak but Wiki crystallises the findings about how and where it started quite succinctly:".

"The first case of the disease to be detected was at Cheale Meats abattoir in Little Warley, Essex on 19 February 2001 on pigs from Buckinghamshire and the Isle of Wight. Over the next four days, several more cases were announced in Essex. On 23 February, a case was confirmed in Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland, from where the pig in the first case had come; this farm was later confirmed as the source of the outbreak and the owner, Bobby Waugh of Pallion, was found guilty of having failed to inform the authorities of a notifiable disease and banned from keeping farm animals for 15 years. He was later found guilty of feeding his pigs "untreated waste"."

The contamination source was never identified but was believed to have originated in illegally imported meat or meat product which found its way into the catering trade and thus into the swill that the farmer fed his pigs - the swill should have been heat treated to make it safe for pig consumption but he failed in that regard.

It is now illegal to feed pigs (whether kept commercially or kept as pets) with catering waste or domestic kitchen waste in the UK.
 

Angry_Mob 

Field Bee
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
982
Reaction score
106
Location
N. Ireland
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
30+
The key words in that text are "move goods through Northern Ireland". The scenario I outlined previously is for the import of packages into Northern Ireland; the imports are declared and once they are imported then I still see no reason here that they cannot have free access to GB.

I think in the coming months if not years we will see how farcical the NI protocol is in that the there is no provision for the rules of origin. I have already heard of EU companies who have registered companies in NI for this very reason; they can ship their product to here for it to be delivered and then it is redistributed throughout GB without restriction.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
The key words in that text are "move goods through Northern Ireland". The scenario I outlined previously is for the import of packages into Northern Ireland; the imports are declared and once they are imported then I still see no reason here that they cannot have free access to GB.
I can - in law they are still being 'moved through' unless, of course they are kept there for a year or so, just being kept in a holding facility, for however long would still count as being moved through.
 

Angry_Mob 

Field Bee
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
982
Reaction score
106
Location
N. Ireland
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
30+
I can - in law they are still being 'moved through' unless, of course they are kept there for a year or so, just being kept in a holding facility, for however long would still count as being moved through.
Where in the law though?

The only stipulations I see are:

Your goods will be qualifying Northern Ireland goods from 1 January 2021 if they are in free circulation in Northern Ireland - that means not under a customs procedure or in an authorised temporary storage facility - before you move them from Northern Ireland to Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales).
If the goods are delivered then they are no longer under procedure as per the terms of whatever incoterm that is used?

Using your criteria if a load of flowers is imported to Northern Ireland from Netherlands via Rosslare; does this mean the florist in Belfast can't sell to GB for over a year? Doesn't sound like free and unfettered access and in this scenario unworkable.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
Where in the law though?
That one piece of legislation doesn't encompass the whole law does it? the prosecution would look farther afield Mens rea - the intent to deceive in this case as, quite obviously the only reason for importing the bees into Eire was to evade the customary duties on import to the country of destination, they were never in 'free circulation' in the North but just passing through.
 

Angry_Mob 

Field Bee
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
982
Reaction score
106
Location
N. Ireland
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
30+
No but international agreements supercede domestic law hence why we have the NI protocol.

There is no deception at play if things are done within the letter of the law. Its a bit like the whole tax avoidance and tax evasion discussion; the former is perfectly legal but you could argue that it may be against the spirit of the law; but you cannot be prosecuted for it.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
25,396
Reaction score
2,784
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
No but international agreements supercede domestic law hence why we have the NI protocol.

There is no deception at play if things are done within the letter of the law. Its a bit like the whole tax avoidance and tax evasion discussion; the former is perfectly legal but you could argue that it may be against the spirit of the law; but you cannot be prosecuted for it.
You're entitled to your opinion, I prefer to base mine on experience. If I was the case officer on such a prosecution I would wake up on the morning of the court case refreshed and cheerful after a good night's sleep.
 

yeogi75 

Drone Bee
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
1,338
Reaction score
1
Location
leicester united kingdom
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
15 nationals
I have only one source but it seems official and accurate. It is reported that Dutch customs officials confiscated the ham sandwiches [and other foodstuffs] of in-bound hauliers while making remarks along the lines of 'Welcome to Brexit, Sir'. I loved the Dutch, I lived there for two years and found them to be an intelligent and affable people (and so tall!) but this is beyond the pale and smacks very much of spite because we left the EU. I am saddened and disappointed by the Dutch attitude and sadly expect it to be widespread across Europe. We bent over backwards to find a deal in the EU and I truly wish we had gone with no-deal now as this entrenched attitude is only going to get worse and we have given away fishing rights, plus many other things, for nothing and are being rewarded by obfuscation and obstruction in all things European. I did vote out and am one of the many people who thought it wouldn't happen and only wanted to give the stodgy Euro Parliament a bloody nose -- bit of a failed plan there -- but if Cameron had come back from Europe with something, anything, that would give us back even a hint of sovereignty, I would have voted remain, but the EU were obdurate and he was useless, so we left. As with COVID, [our relationship with] Europe will get a lot worse before it gets better. So sad, and so unnecessary.


Edit: It is now all over the news.
it was probably dutch ham anyway
 

Angularity 

Field Bee
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
637
Reaction score
39
Location
Cambridgeshire
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
7
NI has been royally stitched up in this Brexit agreement. Take pesticide regulations; we have unfettered market access to GB for treated products, i.e. all conventional food, from NI. GB food flowing into NI must comply with EU regulations. Imagine there's a new, safer, less persistent OSR herbicide that is authorised for use in GB, but not in the EU due to a mixture of incompetence and bureaucratic inertia (just like the Covid vaccines); we cannot sell our honey to NI, growers in NI cannot use the new herbicide, but it's OK for us to import stuff using a older more dangerous product because the EU says so. The EU has control, but the people of NI have no way to influence that control.

Maximum Residue Limits for pesticides in food in GB are likely to diverge from those in the EU, as science develops. What happens when our limits become lower than those in the EU? And it's highly likely that is the way things will go; with only GB to think about, our regulations will become tailored to our needs, not diluted by the needs of the Spanish/Greeks/Estonians etc. So, we (GB) can sell to NI, but NI cannot sell to GB. How is that an example of a United Kingdom?

OK, let's get rid of pesticides altogether. Same thing applies. A product classified as organic in GB may or may not be accepted as organic in the EU. Who decides for NI? The EU. The organic control bodies in NI (like in the rest of UK, these are private companies without government oversight) can comply with EU rules if they want to label their products as organic, but EU organic farmers are permitted to use sprays that GB organic farmers are not. So is 'organic' food from NI really organic? Follow the wrong set of rules in NI and you can't sell to GB.

I guess that we could say this is all a natural consequence of not wanting a fence along the border, and if that's what the people of NI regard as their priority, then so be it. It helps that most people in GB couldn't care less about NI.
 

Amari 

Drone Bee
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
299
Location
Suffolk
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
10
NI has been royally stitched up in this Brexit agreement.

I guess that we could say this is all a natural consequence of not wanting a fence along the border, and if that's what the people of NI regard as their priority, then so be it. It helps that most people in GB couldn't care less about NI.
The people of NI voted Remain. They didn't wish his chaos on themselves.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top