Environmental health not interested!?!

[crazy_bull]

Being a good boy i thought i best register with my local environmental health office as a food producer however they don't seem to be interested saying i need to register with DEFRA as a primary producer, anyone else found this?

I am already in with the Trading Standards bods.

C B

 

[VEG]

You dont register with defra only trading standards and enviromental health. I did this they came and visited last year. This year I had a phonecall they asked if anything had changed I said no. They then said ok we will see you in a year or two.

 

[Finman]

Being a good boy i thought i best register with my local environmental health office as a food producer however they don't seem to be interested saying i need to register with DEFRA as a primary producer, anyone else found this?

I am already in with the Trading Standards bods.

C B

I think that DEFRA is not a legal trading or health organisation. Where is it needed?

You follow health standards which are probably same as in EU.

You have much hives and then your honey handling rooms must be according food stuff handling standards/EU.

 

[crazy_bull]

You dont register with defra only trading standards and enviromental health. I did this they came and visited last year. This year I had a phonecall they asked if anything had changed I said no. They then said ok we will see you in a year or two.

Thats what I thought but Environmental Health chap didn't want to know, oh well, i have saved his email saying as such incase of a problem, before the move we had bi-annual visits from trading standards which was no bother and had made the local environmental health office aware we existed but they never came out.

 

[crazy_bull]

I think that DEFRA is not a legal trading or health organisation. Where is it needed?

You follow health standards which are probably same as in EU.

You have much hives and then your honey handling rooms must be according food stuff handling standards/EU.

I agree with you we are under EU trading standards i just couldn't work out why the Environmental Health chap was recommending i register with DEFRA, it made no sense. I might call him to discuss further.

C B

 

[VEG]

The lady from EH that came to see me said basically that we are very low risk and they are more interested in fast food places and restaurants. I think the chap you spoke to dont know his job, I would try to speak to someone else in that department to make sure you are covered. I even did a food hygeine course it wasnt needed but it just shows them you take it seriously.

 

[Poly Hive]

It is trading standards that you want to be concerned with.

From me they wanted a log of batches.

They wanted calibrated scales, ie buy a set of stamped weights.

They wanted to see that I was making every effort to have every jar weigh the same. It is as big an offence (in their eyes) to over fill as to underfill... Be sure on that one. Do NOT over fill as that is making your product more desirable than your competitors by effectively cheating.. (I know I know but that is what they told me)

PH

 

[Tamarisk]

Environmental Health are normally responsible for food safety/hygiene but in the case of primary production Trading Standards are now responsible. Honey production would be regarded as primary production. Post production processing would probably not be regarded as primary production and theoretically EH would be responsible.

From a food safety perspective honey production is a very low risk activity and whilst you should be registered with EH (All registrations are copied to TS) it is likely that you will never be visited.

DEFRA have no involvement.

Ian

 

[crazy_bull]

Environmental Health are normally responsible for food safety/hygiene but in the case of primary production Trading Standards are now responsible. Honey production would be regarded as primary production. Post production processing would probably not be regarded as primary production and theoretically EH would be responsible.

From a food safety perspective honey production is a very low risk activity and whilst you should be registered with EH (All registrations are copied to TS) it is likely that you will never be visited.

DEFRA have no involvement.

Ian

Cheers very helpful and confirms what I thought

 

[crazy_bull]

It is trading standards that you want to be concerned with.

From me they wanted a log of batches.

They wanted calibrated scales, ie buy a set of stamped weights.

They wanted to see that I was making every effort to have every jar weigh the same. It is as big an offence (in their eyes) to over fill as to underfill... Be sure on that one. Do NOT over fill as that is making your product more desirable than your competitors by effectively cheating.. (I know I know but that is what they told me)

PH

Yes they made me buy an approved set of scales that was +/- 2gms replacing our none approved scales that were accurate to 0.01gms and when he checked it against his stamped weight it was only 0.5gms out he said not good enough!

I do batch weighing and record all the batches aginst lot numbers and then where the different lots go and where the honey came from.

 

[Rosti]

If you are having trouble sleeping read on.

Registration depends on intention. As beeks we are not raising livestock we are processing and then selling the product of primary 'livestock' rearing. As such we are required to register with our 'home' authority (as food producers), normally the local authority and normally handled via the food safety team within environmental health. DEFRA does not come into it!

Not commonly known but the way the law is written means that if you process honey and give it away you are still supplying for consumption a food product and as such should register! You should also have a current HACCP plan (Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points) in place and be able to demonstrate that you have considered and are taking all due diligence and all reasonable precautions to avoid a food safety incident (Food Safet Act 1990).

For info: General Food Law Regulation (EC) 178/2002 sets out the UK mandate to provide a consolidated central registration of food business. The UK has chosen to do this via local authorities

Article 6 of EC 852/2004 requires food business operators to notify local authorities of their business operations.

Local authority teams may then risk assess an applicant to determine whether inspection is required and if so at what frequency. Primary consideration is given to microbiological considerations with foreign body |(physical) and chemical usually being secondary.

Trading standards only have an interest with regard potential misrepresentation under the Food labelling regulations 1996 and 659/2006 Weights and Measures (Packaged Goods) Regulations 2006

 

[Tamarisk]

Rosti,
I am an Environmental Health Officer managing a food safety team in a local authority.

I agree with much that you say however there are a few points that I can clarify:

Food safety at Primary Producion level is the responsibility of Trading Standards (see Food Law Code of Practice)

Honey production and centrifuging is regarded as Primary Production. Any further processing would not be.

The requirement for HACCP does not apply to Primary Production and in the event of further processing (creaming etc) by a small producer I would only expect something rudimentary and would be happy to help the producer write this.

I am about to leave for France for a week but happy to provide further info. (if anyone is sad enough to want it!) on my return

Regards
Ian

 

[crazy_bull]

Hi Ian,

Have fun in France, i may well give you a shout in a week or so to get all the relavant paperwork in place as i'm starting to do more and more farmers markets and many of them want to see the paperwork before setting up.

Regards

Luke

 

[Rosti]

Tamarisk, I have pm'd. we have same background but diff interp, I'd just like to investigate why, probab around primary and secondary I suspect. R

 

[VEG]

Tamarisk I think most if not all would be interested.

I had a letter from trading standards as well stating that my labels are up to legal requirements so ask for one of these and keep it safe.

 

[Andy]

Tamarisk I think most if not all would be interested.

I had a letter from trading standards as well stating that my labels are up to legal requirements so ask for one of these and keep it safe.

Did you come to consensus on whether soft set was still primary production or not?

 

[pargyle]

Did you come to consensus on whether soft set was still primary production or not?

Sadly, you are talking to the wall .. Veg has not been seen since Nov 2022 and Tamarisk since 2012 ... If you click on a members name it will tell you when they were last present on the forum ...

 

[ericbeaumont]

Did you come to consensus on whether soft set was still primary production or not?

23 years! Nice try, Andy! My interpretation of post 12 is that soft set would be post-production and not primary production. Whether anything has changed since then is a moot point; contact your TS?

 

[Andy]

23 years! Nice try, Andy! My interpretation of post 12 is that soft set would be post-production and not primary production. Whether anything has changed since then is a moot point; contact your TS?

Thanks. I’ll check with them.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I’ll check with them

Let us know the outcome.