Emergency Queen Cells. Eggs or larvae?

[Erichalfbee]

Thinking earlier about a conversation with @enrico.
I was always taught to put in test frames with young larvae rather than eggs, and if raising a queen from one to remove the first capped emergency cells as they were made on older less well nourished larvae.
Now I read this
https://www.theapiarist.org/the-bees-know-best/Thoughts?

 

[enrico]

Thinking earlier about a conversation with @enrico.
I was always taught to put in test frames with young larvae rather than eggs, and if raising a queen from one to remove the first capped emergency cells as they were made on older less well nourished larvae.
Now I read this
https://www.theapiarist.org/the-bees-know-best/Thoughts?

it is interesting but I need to read it several times!

 

[Finman]

Thinking earlier about a conversation with @enrico.
I was always taught to put in test frames with young larvae rather than eggs, and if raising a queen from one to remove the first capped emergency cells as they were made on older less well nourished larvae.

Thoughts?

Emergency queens are started from larvae. You can see it yourself. Very easy.

When laying queens were inspected, all queens originated from 3 days old larva

When the first queen emerges, it kills other pupae.

What is common to emergency cells, it is that emerged cells do not have spare royal jelly at the bottom of cells.

The Apiarist writing is full of face news.
Someone has just wrote so.

Bees know best.... shame on beekeeper then...

 

[Finman]

Research 1984
According this under 1% out of emergency cells were started from eggs.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks, Finman. This what I have always understood. It's why you get so many capped cells in the presence of younger open ones.

 

[Anduril]

This relates to the Bees know best article and is more up to date, it may give you a better insight into what the bees are doing.
On numerous occasions I have only used eggs, when starting nucs from scratch, using the Hopkins method of queen rearing. Also used eggs for a test frame.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Of course the bees will draw QCs from eggs if that’s all they have but if they have young larvae they will use those too. Now left to their own devices will they then tear down the older cells. Can they tell the quality of the developing queen inside?

 

[Anduril]

In that video David Tarpy says they tear the old worker larvae down, so you will see a thinning of 50%

 

[enrico]

I guess they are only eggs for three days max. So a three day old egg is a young larvae on the fourth day!

 

[Finman]

In that video David Tarpy says they tear the old worker larvae down, so you will see a thinning of 50%

In what circumtancies?. Why they do that? Bees eate worker larvae, if they have lack of pollen. When I feed with pollen patty, no larvae is missing.

50% missing larvae is nornal, if bees cannot go to forage pollen.

 

[Finman]

As the research says, young larvae are most, when bees start emercency cells. You can try it with Miller system.

But when first virgins emerge, they have been oldest larvae 3 days old.

All larvae are fed with royal jelly first 3 days.

 

[Ian123]

Thinking earlier about a conversation with @enrico.
I was always taught to put in test frames with young larvae rather than eggs, and if raising a queen from one to remove the first capped emergency cells as they were made on older less well nourished larvae.
Now I read this
https://www.theapiarist.org/the-bees-know-best/Thoughts?

There is also research around showing queens resulting from emergency cells are smaller/lighter….

 

[Anduril]

In what circumtancies?. Why they do that? Bees eate worker larvae, if they have lack of pollen. When I feed with pollen patty, no larvae is missing.

50% missing larvae is nornal, if bees cannot go to forage pollen.

Thinning of queen cells, tearing down cells with larvae that was too old.

 

[Finman]

Thinning of queen cells, tearing down cells with larvae that was too old.

Yeah... when first virgin is emerged, it starts at once to tear down other queen cells

 

[Anduril]

Yeah... when first virgin is emerged, it starts at once to tear down other queen cells

No! The workers are tearing the cells down. 'Thinning the herd'.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yeah... when first virgin is emerged, it starts at once to tear down other queen cells

nope

 

[Anduril]

There is also research around showing queens resulting from emergency cells are smaller/lighter….

Whether the queens are big or small, the research shows the ovarioles are the same.

 

[Ian123]

Whether the queens are big or small, the research shows the ovarioles are the same.

Not sure about that, there was a difference in performance in the resulting queens and even higher levels of superseded queens that Autumn….if I have time I’ll try and dig it out.

 

[Finman]

Whether the queens are big or small, the research shows the ovarioles are the same.

If you want, you can use emergency queens in your hives. Sometimes they look more like worker bee.

The tesearch says, that most UK beekeepers do not mind, do they get honey or not fron their hives.

 

[Finman]

Whether the queens are big or small, the research shows the ovarioles are the same.

You did not read the point, that semen sac is smaller in emercency cells.

Yeah... I know much beekeepers which do not mind to select their queens. They use what ever bugs. Swarming queens are favorite.