Emergency or supercedure

[Hivetool2021]

Hi all, no sign of eggs or larva , I'm thinking they are emergency cells, but could do with a second opinion
.thanks

HT

 

[Boston Bees]

Certainly emergency cells.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yep

 

[Cuckmere couple]

and hasnt one emerged?

 

[Boston Bees]

and hasnt one emerged?

Looks like it has been torn down by the workers (the side has been ripped open, rather than a neat bean-can lid removed from the end - perhaps the queen inside was dead.

It may have emerged properly, and then they tore it down, but given that the others haven't emerged yet I would suspect the above is more likely

 

[Finman]

New queens will be very small size

 

[JamezF]

New queens will be very small size

Some beekeepers say this whilst others say that it makes no difference (though there may be other factors involved that give less than optimal results -- the queens being raised from older larvae rather than eggs, for example). Some even explain why it does or doesn't make a difference without any reference to scientific sources.

I've not been able to find any scientific evidence that supports either proposition. Is anyone else aware of any?

James

 

[Finman]

I've not been able to find any scientific evidence that supports either proposition. Is anyone else aware of any?

James

You can use your own brain.

Feeding time of the queen larva is 5 days.

Oldest larva, which can become a queen is 3 days, because all worker larvae are fed with royal jelly first 3 days.

So 3 days old larva can be fed like a queen 2 days. You see it so, that no emergency queen has in its cell extra food like in all normal queen cells. ... why the bees load the queen cells with extra royal jelly. When the cell is capped the larva continues its eating one more day.

I use to rear queens so, that I change the larvae in queen cells. Queen will have maximum food, and acception of crafting is 100%.

I have seen emergency queen lots during my life. Even if in real queen cells all larvae ate not fully fed. I kill small size queens.

I want that my queens are good, and I do not accept emergency queens neither supecedure queens.

When I have kept supercedure queens, their have been average or under average quality.

You will find easily scientific papers about differencies in quality of emergency queens and normal queens.

I trust my eyes too, how I see the difference between queens. And I trust my experience.

 

[Finman]

Yes, beekeepers have much stories about
" once I had a queen, which was.. "

When I rear queens, I trust on propability, not on " once upon a time"

 

[JamezF]

The best I can find at the moment is the following, from a post on Beesource. It's not totally scientific, but it is at least heading in the right direction.

Age of comb has SOO much to do with it. In a study using 50 indoor OB hives with 10 fresh comb, 10 1yr old comb, 10 2yr old comb, 10 3yr old comb, and 10 4yr old comb... we made each one queenless with all having ages of brood from 1day eggs to capped. We recorded the number, placement, age of brood, cell sizes, feed, and emergence of each queen produced.

Once hatched we began recording their activities and gave each 48 hrs to chew up the other cells before we removed the excluders from the exits and allowed them to begin mating flights...

We then studied the length of time each flight took and how long each queen took before she began laying...

Each queen was allowed to lay for 30 days before they were killed and examined, and their patterns and laying rate was examined...

The end result was that 8 out the 10 queens from the fresh comb hives were equally matched to our average grafted queens in body weight and spermatheca testing, while the other 2 were lower weight and scored lower in spermatheca testing. However, they were all closely matched in the patterning and laying rate...

Each of the following age groups showed less and less quality, but each one did indeed produce at least 2 quality queens.

Which I think suggests the possibility that it may not be specifically emergency queens that are an issue, but the conditions in which they are raised.

James

 

[magor]

well i no trust a closed emergency Qcell(maybe except if its real beauty,large/strong wax with white shades) but i can trust un open one if larva is on its right days and full with bright jelly cause excuse me but you know grafting are also emergency cells but we ve chosen put in the right larva age and that the hive feedin those Qcells is enough strong to do so and build em .... My penchant are swarm cells (but thats personal..)

as for the Q size (small or fat) i ussually try not judze from appearance(except colors maybe but thats also personal) but how well she lays and ve seen ''small'' Queens do same as ''larger'' ones, my only worry with small ones is that they may go through QE but if you no use QE and as long she lays good/act as a real good Q i no see why not.....

in my beekeepin experience what i ve learnt most (and thats life lesson for me that them ve taught me, thnx bees) is that there is no general rule that applies in all situations but each rule has and un ''if ''( if that yes but if that nope) but what i love more is when there are more than one ''if '' go against each other making it puzzle read the situation

 

[Finman]

But if you think that it does not matter, what kind of queens you have, then you do what ever.

If you control brooding space with excluder, perhaps you do not see, which queen lays more and which less.

What ever, I do not use emergency queens.

The most difficult is to find a mother queen, from which I graft queens.

 

[magor]

mostly use cutted swarm cells for queens and i prefer do it from dark queens colonies when em show swarm cells,then AS mother colony, makin nucs from other colonies with capped brood and when cells sealed transfer em(what is the negative is that i do no ve plan it and sometimes ve to go back and destroy any attempt for a Qcell comes from any open brood cause its not always all full capped brood the frames in nucs )

true with QE maybe i cant see her top lay potential but can judge if she is good one ,bad or so and so

i also try avoid emergency cells, sure not use the capped ones, but may use uncapped one if larva on right days and cell full in bright jelly..............
but isnt queenless the colony you put the graftin Qcells to be fed and draw at least the first day ?if so, arent these cells emergency for bees who started them? (before moving them in finishing colonies and become ''supersedure''?) so you cant do the same with un open emergency cell from a good mother queen if larva inside is on right days and colony is enough strong to feed and draw it without graftin?whats the difference its the same larva that probably you ve chosen if graft

written it and above post i do no cancell any ''right'' cell or any method with choosen breedin criteria but My penchant are swarm cells from chosen colony and i ve around 20 colonies, i can play with swarm ''chaos'' its not that i ve 100-200-1000... and ve to plan all time the next moment so as choose only to graft my queens for simplicity doing a specific days /time plan , also am not selling either bees or queens to demand large numbers of queens so as graft , if i ever catch those numbers then sure i ll graft otherwise chaos ll eat me

this spring had a colony on swarm cells and decided to do my ussual ,AS the queen and kept 5 cells from 4 different frames for variety and in positions which from i can cut em and tranfer in nucs and let one also behind , 3 born ''orange'' queens and the frame with the 2 cells born dark ones which i like more , if i was doin graft then maybe i end up with 5 dark or none?dunno