Elf and whatsit....

[Poly Hive]

This popped up on a woodworking forum I follow.

The problem of course is that common sense is not that common....

PH

 

[roche]

Darwin rules.

 

[derekm]

The problem with "Common Sense" is the paperwork.


It hasn't got any!

Nothing for anyone to shuffle, place in a folder, to waiting for some one to inspect.
And most heinous of all - no boxes to tick or places to scribble initials.

 

[Poly Hive]

I well remember a conversation with the Rig Supertendant who waved his hand at the shelves full of file boxes, some 20+ of and saying, "Twenty years ago we drilled holes with none of this."

Says it all really.

PH

 

[Beersmith]

In the 1980s each year for every 100,000 industrial workers an average of 2.5 workers sustained fatal injuries.

Forty years on the average has dropped to an average of about 0.5 industrial workers sustaining fatal injuries.

Those health and safety rules and regulations, I mean, who needs them?

Workers who would prefer not to be killed at work perhaps?

 

[pargyle]

In the 1980s each year for every 100,000 industrial workers an average of 2.5 workers sustained fatal injuries.

Forty years on the average has dropped to an average of about 0.5 industrial workers sustaining fatal injuries.

Those health and safety rules and regulations, I mean, who needs them?

Workers who would prefer not to be killed at work perhaps?

It's a massive decline in injuries and deaths in the Construction industry:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/history/index.htm

84% reduction in Construction Industry deaths since 1974 ... sadly .. the only massive increase is the notified mesothelioma deaths (ie: asbestos related) as the people who were exposed to that material are now reaping the rewards of an industry that didn't know/didn't care.

Health and safety STILL requires some common sense and some degree of personal responsibility but the paper trail (whilst laborious) has led the construction industry into thinking about how it's employees behave and how they are trained and certificated. I was there at the start and the battles I fought with the 'just get on with it' brigade were frustrating .. and the times when it went wrong was usually after 'I was just .. ' 'I just thought ...' 'I only had to ...' 'I was only ...' 'I didn't think it would ..'.. from my employees. It was an uphill struggle.

 

[Beersmith]

It's a massive decline in injuries and deaths in the Construction industry:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/history/index.htm

84% reduction in Construction Industry deaths since 1974 ... sadly .. the only massive increase is the notified mesothelioma deaths (ie: asbestos related) as the people who were exposed to that material are now reaping the rewards of an industry that didn't know/didn't care.

Health and safety STILL requires some common sense and some degree of personal responsibility but the paper trail (whilst laborious) has led the construction industry into thinking about how it's employees behave and how they are trained and certificated. I was there at the start and the battles I fought with the 'just get on with it' brigade were frustrating .. and the times when it went wrong was usually after 'I was just .. ' 'I just thought ...' 'I only had to ...' 'I was only ...' 'I didn't think it would ..'.. from my employees. It was an uphill struggle.

Good intelligent comment.

 

[Poly Hive]

It is yes and my comment, both the first post and the subsequent were supposed to be mildly amusing.

Seems to have generated a sense of humour melt down.

Just for info one of the drivers that made me leave the offshore oil business was the death of one of the best men I have had the pleasure of working with. It was totally avoidable and the people who caused it never owned up to it.

Merry Christmas.


PH

 

[derekm]

Ahhh. Here is the crux of the matter... some amount of paperwork prompts the thought that engenders safe working practice. However increasing the paperwork ad infinitum does not increases safety. Moderation and discretion are very elusive qualities. Moderate, well targeted paperwork is a boon, when it isnt it is a burden.

 

[pargyle]

Ahhh. Here is the crux of the matter... some amount of paperwork prompts the thought that engenders safe working practice. However increasing the paperwork ad infinitum does not increases safety. Moderation and discretion are very elusive qualities. Moderate, well targeted paperwork is a boon, when it isnt it is a burden.

Yes ... when the health & safety gets taken over by people more concerned with the quality of the paperwork than the safety of the practice it becomes counter productive. I've seen Risk Assessments and Method Statements that are so wordy they are of no use to the poor sod in the front line trying to drill a hole in a piece of wood ...paperwork produced by a supposed H & S 'Professional' who didn't know a drill from a pencil sharpener.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Yes ... when the health & safety gets taken over by people more concerned with the quality of the paperwork than the safety of the practice it becomes counter productive. I've seen Risk Assessments and Method Statements that are so wordy they are of no use to the poor sod in the front line trying to drill a hole in a piece of wood ...paperwork produced by a supposed H & S 'Professional' who didn't know a drill from a pencil sharpener.

I agree,
I decided to retire really because I got fed up with producing paperwork rather than producing a good job.
On occasions I was producing 200 pages of guff for one days work. These consisted of a method statement that could be 10-15 pages long, a risk assessment consisting of 10-15 pages and COSSH assessments for 4 resins each of 2 or 3 parts which could be up to 12 pages for each part!
None of these could be generic, they always had to be specific for the jobs. The most annoying thing being that 90% of the paperwork wasn't even looked at and just placed in a file to ensure someone's arse was well protected. In my opinion most of this was not required but was requested by main contractors.
Oh how I love being retired!

 

[thorn]

In the 1980s each year for every 100,000 industrial workers an average of 2.5 workers sustained fatal injuries.

Forty years on the average has dropped to an average of about 0.5 industrial workers sustaining fatal injuries.

Those health and safety rules and regulations, I mean, who needs them?

Workers who would prefer not to be killed at work perhaps?

Well said by you and Pargyle.
I spent much of my career acting for trade unions. The less experienced workers would see the old hands taking short cuts, and try to copy them, with the inevitable accident following behind. One man's common sense approach is another man's accident waiting to happen.
Paperwork is a different matter. There have to be records, but in many cases they are required because the person who sets the rules is trying to justify his salary.
Hey, this is my 1001th post. A red letter day indeed.

 

[pargyle]

And ... do you know what .. even when you have ALL the paperwork in place .. and you have instructed and inducted your employees in what they have to do, how they have to do it ... you, as the management or director are STILL responsible.

In the eyes of the Health & Safety Executive you have a duty of care to your employees and anyone else on site (Public or other workers) that may be affected by their actions.

It is this Duty of Care clause that will get you every time. I had an employee who fell through an unprotected roof light when he was working on a retail store. He fell 5 metres onto a concrete floor beneath - he died a week later from his head injuries.

He should not have been on the roof, there was a strong point and a safety line place and he had a harness on but was not connected. We had method statements in place for the work we were doing but not for work that had to be done, subsequently, on the roof.

We ended up in court on a charge of duty of care to our employees. The HSE took the position that if you cannot trust your employees to do as they have been told then you have insufficient management on site and you are guilty; we pleaded guilty as there was no arguing this position and would have been found guilty. There was a co-worker also on the roof who, in our mitigation, admitted to the court that they should not have been up there 'and were just having a look' and 'didn't think there was any harm in it'.

All our paperwork was in place ... and accepted for the work we were doing at the time but .. what my employee was doing was outside of the original scope of work and the existing paperwork. No matter how much paper you produce, if there is an accident, you will be lucky to escape prosecutiion.

Having said all this nothing will bring back a 21 year old who I recruited, trained and employed and who I sat alongside with his family and fiance for five days until they switched off his life support. Nearly 30 years ago now and it's still like yesterday and I still feel the responsibility. I thought we had done everything we had to do .. and better than most in the industry at the time .. but it wasn't enough.

 

[derekm]

however, the random loss of concentration or mistake will occur. The thing is that irritates me is the "Make sure it never happens again" platitude. In a probabilistic universe .... sh*t happens! All we can do is make the gaps between it happening longer than last time and have a bucket ready.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

however, the random loss of concentration or mistake will occur. The thing is that irritates me is the "Make sure it never happens again" platitude. In a probabilistic universe .... sh*t happens! All we can do is make the gaps between it happening longer than last time and have a bucket ready.

Maybe I was lucky to have a metalwork teacher who gave all his new pupils a first lesson in what each machine could do to anyone who did not concentrate on what they were doing or became entangled in moving parts with graphic images of examp!es which today's snowflakes would whine about. Using steps to reach high storage was included. I used the knowledge he taught all through my working life and survived with only the odd scrape. I took my own responsibility seriously. 1974 might have been a turning point for some but it spawned ridiculous levels of gold plating to the initial idea and created a behemoth of inspectorate power.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

however, the random loss of concentration or mistake will occur. The thing is that irritates me is the "Make sure it never happens again" platitude. In a probabilistic universe .... sh*t happens! All we can do is make the gaps between it happening longer than last time and have a bucket ready.

Together with the "lessons will be learned" get out.....
So aggravating!