Drone producing colonies

[elainemary]

I’ll be starting queen rearing in next 2 weeks. This year I’ve put extra drone comb (foundationless frame or drone super) in selected colonies ahead of queen rearing, so more of my mature drones from mothers with good characteristics will be near to my mating Nucs. I plan to queen rear from a colony that’s unrelated to the extra good drones.

Curious to hear from experienced queen rearers who ‘flood’ drones near to their mating apiaries, what density of drone producers you use? What ratio of drone producers to mating Nucs and how much drone comb you add? Any evidence/ options, to what extent this actually works, where your mating apiary is not isolated from other beekeepers?

 

[Antipodes]

I’ll be starting queen rearing in next 2 weeks. This year I’ve put extra drone comb (foundationless frame or drone super) in selected colonies ahead of queen rearing, so more of my mature drones from mothers with good characteristics will be near to my mating Nucs. I plan to queen rear from a colony that’s unrelated to the extra good drones.

Curious to hear from experienced queen rearers who ‘flood’ drones near to their mating apiaries, what density of drone producers you use? What ratio of drone producers to mating Nucs and how much drone comb you add? Any evidence/ options, to what extent this actually works, where your mating apiary is not isolated from other beekeepers?

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...7472/drone-mother-stock-selection-quality.pdfThis is an interesting read (the one below more so).

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf

 

[jeff33]

I recall @mbc highlighting the very low chances of virgins mating with selected drones in an open mating scenario for anyone rearing with only a few hives.
He himself flooded areas with huge numbers of hives and didn't always manage to get desired results.

I have abandoned the idea of drone producing colonies on this basis as it takes a lot of resources for bees to raise the drones.

Unless you have a perfectly secluded mating apiary with no other colonies other than yours, it may be futile.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Elaine,
When I inspected one of my colonies 2 weeks ago I could find no eggs but was convinced they hadn't swarmed and guessed HM was having a short rest. When I inspected last week I realised why she wasn't laying! I'd inadvertently managed to get the queen in the super which is full of drone foundation. So now I have a complete super stacked full of drones which hopefully will be exiting via a top entrance in an eke soon. I'm just glad she's one of my best queens!!
So if you want lots of drones just put you queen in a super of drawn drone comb...... works a treat.

 

[elainemary]

Elaine,
When I inspected one of my colonies 2 weeks ago I could find no eggs but was convinced they hadn't swarmed and guessed HM was having a short rest. When I inspected last week I realised why she wasn't laying! I'd inadvertently managed to get the queen in the super which is full of drone foundation. So now I have a complete super stacked full of drones which hopefully will be exiting via a top entrance in an eke soon. I'm just glad she's one of my best queens!!
So if you want lots of drones just put you queen in a super of drawn drone comb...... works a treat.

A nice queen of mine laid up 2 drone super combs in a nadired super. She didn’t touch the worker super frames. So I put these into colonies and glad she was a good queen. Another less good colony did the same thing - again just laid up 2 drone super frames. I forked one out and froze the other then put them back into another colony & they cleaned them up nicely. Seemed to tell me they ‘like’ the equivalent of 2 drone super frames of drone brood.

 

[elainemary]

I recall @mbc highlighting the very low chances of virgins mating with selected drones in an open mating scenario for anyone rearing with only a few hives.
He himself flooded areas with huge numbers of hives and didn't always manage to get desired results.

I have abandoned the idea of drone producing colonies on this basis as it takes a lot of resources for bees to raise the drones.

Unless you have a perfectly secluded mating apiary with no other colonies other than yours, it may be futile.

Trialing mating at home this year, beekeeper on one side has nice colonies less sure about the other 1/2 mile away. Not many other beekeepers around near home so hoping flooding can make an impact. Be interesting to hear what other queen rearers say re density and levels of success. Agree it’s probably difficult in a normal urban / busy beekeeping area.
Thanks for replying

 

[elainemary]

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...7472/drone-mother-stock-selection-quality.pdfThis is an interesting read (the one below more so).

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf

Thanks that’s interesting. And concurs with another source I’ve read. Hoping members on the forum will have some practical experience they can share regarding what they’ve done to flood with drones and their success (or otherwise)

 

[mbc]

I recall @mbc highlighting the very low chances of virgins mating with selected drones in an open mating scenario for anyone rearing with only a few hives.
He himself flooded areas with huge numbers of hives and didn't always manage to get desired results.

I have abandoned the idea of drone producing colonies on this basis as it takes a lot of resources for bees to raise the drones.

Unless you have a perfectly secluded mating apiary with no other colonies other than yours, it may be futile.

This may be true but then we can only improve our chances by endeavouring to stack the odds in our favour.

 

[Ian123]

This may be true but then we can only improve our chances by endeavouring to stack the odds in our favour.

Exactly!…..doesn’t actually cost you anything to produce extra drones, some may mate with your queens or your neighbours so you will certainly increase your chances long term. Aren’t there also those that extol AVM..

 

[elainemary]

This may be true but then we can only improve our chances by endeavouring to stack the odds in our favour.

Agree! What density of drone producing colonies to mating Nucs do you work to pls? Do you put just one comb of drone foundation per colony or more?
Thanks

 

[mbc]

Agree! What density of drone producing colonies to mating Nucs do you work to pls? Do you put just one comb of drone foundation per colony or more?
Thanks

I have 5 out apiaries with about a dozen colonies in each within 2.5 miles of my main mating site ,which over the season will mate, god willing, a couple of hundred queens. I have other apiaries further out, hopefully as a bulwark against incursions of foreign drones.
With regards to putting in drone combs, I don't. This is one of the areas I believe the bees know best and I think the fittest drones will come from well balanced colonies rather than ones we've "forced" to produce more than their usual quota of drones. My brood combs tend to be variable in perceived quality, many with large areas of drone comb naturally anyway, enough to produce the few hundred sexually mature drones at any one time a well balanced colony should have imho.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I have 5 out apiaries with about a dozen colonies in each within 2.5 miles of my main mating site ,which over the season will mate, god willing, a couple of hundred queens. I have other apiaries further out, hopefully as a bulwark against incursions of foreign drones.
With regards to putting in drone combs, I don't. This is one of the areas I believe the bees know best and I think the fittest drones will come from well balanced colonies rather than ones we've "forced" to produce more than their usual quota of drones. My brood combs tend to be variable in perceived quality, many with large areas of drone comb naturally anyway, enough to produce the few hundred sexually mature drones at any one time a well balanced colony should have imho.

I made the decision early on to boost drones after poor mating results last year. But they've made more this year than I've even seen before. I like your thinking, about them knowing best. I've been fretting that the artificial boost will unsettle the varroa co-existence models they are using. I've a few more to check then I'll make a decision on whether to add more drone comb or stop where I am.

 

[jeff33]

You can see where a colony is at by the amount of drone brood present. My strong colonies have all drawn drone cells at the bottom of the BB frames or have drawn frames with 50% drone cells.

 

[rolande]

after poor mating results last year

Non matings or poor matings? Just curious as I'd have thought, weather permitting, that your model would be quite conducive to good mating results.

 

[mbc]

Non matings or poor matings? Just curious as I'd have thought, weather permitting, that your model would be quite conducive to good mating results.

Sick colonies wont produce healthy drones

 

[rolande]

Sick colonies wont produce healthy drones

Are @Beesnaturally's colonies sick? More importantly, are the outlying colonies that stock the local DCAs sick?

Edit: but let's not see this potentially very interesting thread bogged down going over the same ground as several recent threads.

 

[elainemary]

I have 5 out apiaries with about a dozen colonies in each within 2.5 miles of my main mating site ,which over the season will mate, god willing, a couple of hundred queens. I have other apiaries further out, hopefully as a bulwark against incursions of foreign drones.
With regards to putting in drone combs, I don't. This is one of the areas I believe the bees know best and I think the fittest drones will come from well balanced colonies rather than ones we've "forced" to produce more than their usual quota of drones. My brood combs tend to be variable in perceived quality, many with large areas of drone comb naturally anyway, enough to produce the few hundred sexually mature drones at any one time a well balanced colony should have imho.

Thanks. I like the idea of giving each good colony a foundationless frame or a super so they can build what they like. So not forcing it’s giving them a choice to do what they want. Invariably seem to produce drone early on. As need 40 days, as you know, to produce sexually mature drones, got to do this early in season so I can start queen rearing c mid May. Also means worker combs stay worker.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Are @Beesnaturally's colonies sick? More importantly, are the outlying colonies that stock the local DCAs sick?

Edit: but let's not see this potentially very interesting thread bogged down going over the same ground as several recent threads.

We blame the lack of summer weather last year hearabouts Roland.

 

[jeff33]

Thanks. I like the idea of giving each good colony a foundationless frame or a super so they can build what they like. So not forcing it’s giving them a choice to do what they want and like you working with them. Invariably seem to produce drone early on. As need 40 days as you know, to produce sexually mature drones, got up to this early or they will have to rebuild worker cells. Also means worker combs stay worker.

I think some foundationless frames is a good idea to give them the flexibility to do what they want. I am adding 2 foundationless frames to half my colonies this year to see what they do with it.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I think some foundationless frames is a good idea to give them the flexibility to do what they want. I am adding 2 foundationless frames to half my colonies this year to see what they do with it.

I've always avoided dictating cell size/types to my bees by giving them starter strips only in the brood nest. Nowadays I tend to give them deeper (2") starter strips (1/2 a wired shallow foundation), to help get them moving and keep the combs where I want them!