Drone chalkbrood

[Rory Fields]

Yes
The only Chalk I have ever had was in a colony of black bees from an Irish Queen

Jonathan Getty's AMM queen's?

 

[Ian123]

My handling certainly COULD contribute to the build up as I understand it, no? I've bought queen's before and they've been hit and miss - am thinking I'd try some Jolanta queens from Denrosa this year as heather is my main crop and I know it's Murray's too

I’ve got a very nice breeder direct from Jolanta she’s great and produced some very nice daughters. You can get her queens through Black Mountain advertising above

 

[Rory Fields]

I’ve got a very nice breeder fire direct from Jolanta and she’s great and produced some very nice daughters. You can get her queens through Black Mountain advertising above

Great to hear, thanks. I bought one of Laurence's melita queen's last year and was v impressed, though she's a little slow to build up here this spring in Northumberland and had a solitary cell of chalkbrood. Figure Murray's gotta be colder than the start of the Pennines and Jolanta is obviously renowned across the UK for her queens so I think you've just convinced me to buy two instead of one, don't encourage me! ;-)

 

[Michael Palmer]

But you don’t just want a colony that removes them. You want a colony that doesn’t suffer from it at all.

Well, colonies that remove chalk mummies before they become contagious, will never suffer from the disease. Chalkbrood can't maintain its infection if none of the mummies form spores.

 

[Michael Palmer]

As above.
Frozen assay.
Can you elaborate on that please

Sorry, I missed this one...
Freeze killed brood assay...

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0203969

 

[user 20297]

Well, colonies that remove chalk mummies before they become contagious, will never suffer from the disease. Chalkbrood can't maintain its infection if none of the mummies form spores.

So colonies that don't suffer from chalkbrood may have chalked-brood?

 

[Michael Palmer]

So colonies that don't suffer from chalkbrood may have chalked-brood?

Where does chalkbrood come from? It must come from somewhere. Are CB spores endemic in our colonies? Does it come in from outside the colony...
drifting, robbing, or maybe the communal watering hole. I don't really know. I do know that a hygienic colony will clean up and stop a chalkbrood infection.
I had a discussion once with Marla Spivak about CB and the hygienic response. I was seeing what I call the hygienic CB brood pattern. If a % of the brood becomes infected with each round of brood, the bees remove those broods and the queen re-lays in those cells. That new brood will be younger than the brood around it. The same % of that new brood will become infected. The process is repeated. I asked her about this and she said this colonies that have the CB brood pattern aren't hygienic enough. After years of following this, I agree with her. I no longer see that CB brood pattern.

 

[Rory Fields]

Where does chalkbrood come from? It must come from somewhere. Are CB spores endemic in our colonies? Does it come in from outside the colony...
drifting, robbing, or maybe the communal watering hole. I don't really know. I do know that a hygienic colony will clean up and stop a chalkbrood infection.
I had a discussion once with Marla Spivak about CB and the hygienic response. I was seeing what I call the hygienic CB brood pattern. If a % of the brood becomes infected with each round of brood, the bees remove those broods and the queen re-lays in those cells. That new brood will be younger than the brood around it. The same % of that new brood will become infected. The process is repeated. I asked her about this and she said this colonies that have the CB brood pattern aren't hygienic enough. After years of following this, I agree with her. I no longer see that CB brood pattern.

That's terrifically encouraging! So I'll persist with breeding from mu most hygienic queens and eventually it'll be a non-issue hopefully. It's strange, but I keep my worst colonies near other beekeepers bought in mix of genetics at the OSR/canola, and once that tap flows they go from being riddled with chalkbrood to looking like the most hygienic and healthy colony you could imagine - just had to put my 5th super on some of them and pull some drawn comb as they were racing away from me

 

[blackcloud]

Your handling will not cause chalkbrood pick any queen from the main suppliers advertising above and you shouldn’t get chalkbrood!

You shouldn't.
I have 2023 evidence otherwise though.

 

[Ian123]

You shouldn't.
I have 2023 evidence otherwise though.

Really….. what have you had.

 

[blackcloud]

'23 queen from one of the advertisers.
Not wishing to rock the boat because we value the ad revenue......
Nuc built from proven hygienic donor in a sterilised polynuc in a sunny spot up on a stand(that validates the point about cold and damp)
All the starter brood has become adult and they are now extracting chalkbrood from new cells
Another from the same supplier appears to be aspiring to claim benefits payments.
A queen from one of the other advertiser's took over 18months to figure out what she's supposed to be doing-only just got through winter on two seams.
I had a few bad ones in the past and found I could do way better even with feral caste queens so gave up wasting money.
Giving it another go from last season hasn't improved the experience.
I realise they are organic products and at that price point/volume could never be tested first and if I ever receive a decent one I'll readily gush about it but until then Ill keep my customer reviews gagged.

 

[Ian123]

'23 queen from one of the advertisers.
Not wishing to rock the boat because we value the ad revenue......
Nuc built from proven hygienic donor in a sterilised polynuc in a sunny spot up on a stand(that validates the point about cold and damp)
All the starter brood has become adult and they are now extracting chalkbrood from new cells
Another from the same supplier appears to be aspiring to claim benefits payments.
A queen from one of the other advertiser's took over 18months to figure out what she's supposed to be doing-only just got through winter on two seams.
I had a few bad ones in the past and found I could do way better even with feral caste queens so gave up wasting money.
Giving it another go from last season hasn't improved the experience.
I realise they are organic products and at that price point/volume could never be tested first and if I ever receive a decent one I'll readily gush about it but until then Ill keep my customer reviews gagged.

I wouldn’t suggest keeping your review to yourself I’d give a call to the supplier a call and mail over some photos, I’d suggest they would/should be interested. Hell you may even be doing them a favour, certainly none I’ve dealt with would want to be using any lines like that! I’ve had queens from all the above…1 I can’t comment on one yet but I’ve certainly been very happy.

I’d also say you are dead right regards volume and testing it’s just not possible. For a worthwhile check I’d suggest a single brood full would be required and that’s not going to happen. Large suppliers and breeders producing in volume rely on known genetics they can’t test general F1 queens.

I would also say from the suppliers point of view they also end up dealing with customers who try and introduce a queen and six attendants to a brood box full of foundation. Then get the complaining phone call

 

[Rory Fields]

You shouldn't.
I have 2023 evidence otherwise though.

Which suggests surely the persistence of the pathogen and its ability to contaminate previously hygienic colonies; perhaps through drifting drones? I don't let any dead outs get robbed and I don't reuse any frames with visible chalkbrood in, nor in theory, those from badly afflicted colonies period. I obviously don't open feed either and I suspect watering sources are more than numerous enough not to be high vectors of pathogen. I understand its not a priority like the foulbroods or varroa, or even Asian hornets or nosema, but it does seem to have little research done into it or definitive ways of reducing its prevalence, bar the usual anodyne obvious stuff about keeping strong colonies and reducing stress as much as possible, and of course - the answer to EVERY problem in beekeeping, requeening.

 

[Antipodes]

Which suggests surely the persistence of the pathogen and its ability to contaminate previously hygienic colonies; perhaps through drifting drones? I don't let any dead outs get robbed and I don't reuse any frames with visible chalkbrood in, nor in theory, those from badly afflicted colonies period. I obviously don't open feed either and I suspect watering sources are more than numerous enough not to be high vectors of pathogen. I understand its not a priority like the foulbroods or varroa, or even Asian hornets or nosema, but it does seem to have little research done into it or definitive ways of reducing its prevalence, bar the usual anodyne obvious stuff about keeping strong colonies and reducing stress as much as possible, and of course - the answer to EVERY problem in beekeeping, requeening.

Have a look at this.
It's our number one disease here at the moment, so we've done some work on it.

https://agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/21-034.pdf

 

[Rory Fields]

Have a look at this.
It's our number one disease here at the moment, so we've done some work on it.

https://agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/21-034.pdf

Oh, great, thanks for that! I've not found much that was either comprehensible to my unscientific noggin, or already well known or conjecture without support, so that'll be interesting to read when I fire up the laptop, genuinely v grateful. What's the feeling among beekeepers over there to the inevitable arrival of varroa? I heard a lot of Aussie beekeepers felt that the destruction zone was unhelpful and unnecessary but curious as to the consensus on the ground - I wasn't a beekeeper when it arrived in the UK so I've never known what it was like before. Was interesting to read in our national BKA mag that Cuba opted not to treat and after suffering heavy losses initially, now has a lot of varroa tolerant bees with the often associated uncapping and recapping behaviour.

 

[Ian123]

Oh, great, thanks for that! I've not found much that was either comprehensible to my unscientific noggin, or already well known or conjecture without support, so that'll be interesting to read when I fire up the laptop, genuinely v grateful. What's the feeling among beekeepers over there to the inevitable arrival of varroa? I heard a lot of Aussie beekeepers felt that the destruction zone was unhelpful and unnecessary but curious as to the consensus on the ground - I wasn't a beekeeper when it arrived in the UK so I've never known what it was like before. Was interesting to read in our national BKA mag that Cuba opted not to treat and after suffering heavy losses initially, now has a lot of varroa tolerant bees with the often associated uncapping and recapping behaviour.

They may not treat for Varroa but they certainly use management techniques for its control!

 

[Rory Fields]

They may not treat for Varroa but they certainly use management techniques for its control!

Sorry, just for clarity - you mean the Cubans use bio-technical methods? I didnt recall that, but my once eidetic memory has been utterly wombled by ECT so apologies if I misquoted and can you tell us more about which techniques they employ if it's not specified in BBKA News? Cheers. I genuinely struggle to remember what day of the week it is at present :-/

 

[Antipodes]

Oh, great, thanks for that! I've not found much that was either comprehensible to my unscientific noggin, or already well known or conjecture without support, so that'll be interesting to read when I fire up the laptop, genuinely v grateful. What's the feeling among beekeepers over there to the inevitable arrival of varroa? I heard a lot of Aussie beekeepers felt that the destruction zone was unhelpful and unnecessary but curious as to the consensus on the ground - I wasn't a beekeeper when it arrived in the UK so I've never known what it was like before. Was interesting to read in our national BKA mag that Cuba opted not to treat and after suffering heavy losses initially, now has a lot of varroa tolerant bees with the often associated uncapping and recapping behaviour.

I'm on a remote island about the size of Ireland, and we are waiting I suppose, but looking all the time. We have to deliberately search for them under our law and there are all sorts of specific laws about it in NSW. We did find a couple of small hive beetles here just recently, so all efforts are being put into that at the moment.

 

[Ian123]

“Another important difference is the prohibition on the use of any chemicals in the hives. Control of Varroa mites (first found in Cuba in about 1996) is done by genetics and hive maintenance practices such as re-queening hives with high mite counts and frequent use of drone frames. No specifics were given on how mite counts are conducted or on how high mite loads were determined, but the primary means of controlling Varroa were segregating and requeening (brood break) infested hives in separate areas of the apiary. Some apiaries also appeared to use drone breeding hives to assist in mite control. It should be noted that all queens are raised in certified centers and sold to beekeepers at a cost of about $3. The beekeepers we visited all said they re-queen every one to two years and will routinely re-queen a low producing hive or mite infested hive”

https://www.beeculture.com/beekeeping-in-cuba/

 

[Ian123]

Also whilst Cuban bees have a European origin they are distinctly different. Due to their isolation and African influence.
There is also another much smaller isolated population on another island of European origin bees living with Varroa. Research shows these hives having a lack of the main viruses we contend with and spread by Varroa.
Even in this country we have an example of bees coping with varroa when lesser virulent/damaging viruses are present.
It appears bees may cope to a point with varroa but it’s associated viruses are the tipping point!
We need to be careful or realistic when comparing like for like!