Don't split your growing hives

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Finman

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
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Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
Langstroth
.
I have read now tens or hundreds of answers, that colony grows and friends tell to split the hive to pieces. Why? That will spoil build up for moths.

Another example: one box (strong!) colony swarms and splits itself to invalid state. Again it takes 2 months that hive is capable to do something.

In this forum is a huge panic to invalidisize hive build up. That is not beekeeping. It is panicing.

First the goal is to get a box full of bees.
After that hive is capable to make 8/10 frames of brood. 2 frames are food what every hive needs.
If hive makes 10/10 frames brood, it really needs another brood box. It it does not get it, it swarms.

It is good to test, what kind of queen you have. Let it lay freely and queen tells itself what it does.
No hurry to put excluder because growing colony consumes all food.
Give second brood box under brood that colony can maintain heat in brood area.

When boath brood boxes are full of bees, add a super over brood and swap brood boxes.

When 2 boxes are near full of bees, add super. It should take 4-5 weeks. Then brood are so much
that you ought to add super every week.

If a queen is good, it lays about 15 langstroth frames. The rest is pollen and honey
10 frames is something, but a little bit tired queen.

in Britain you really need space for pollen stores that colony has food over rainy days. Bees use to store pollen nex to brood. If they do not get polle and protein every day, they eate part of larvae.

You say that you have allways pollen in nature. But but, bees do not forage in rain or in under 15C temps. If you do not believe, that your problem, not mine. I have learned those lessons..

Excluder

you need not hurry with excluder. You may put it then when honey really start to come in.
My hives have usually 4 boxes that honey coming in is serious. Hive may get 10 k honey, but if it is rainy next week, they eate almost all that honey.

If colony must draw foundations at very beginning of expansion, it should not swarm. It must be something wrongit hive dies it. Either it is mad to swarm or queen's laying space is finnish.
For example rape nectar flo may stuck the hive in couple of day.

In my environment biggest reason to swarming are rainy cold weathers when bees have nothing to do.
Same result comes if we have 2-3 weeks blooming cap and fully grown hives have not job to do.
Rainy days added to blooming gap is the worst situation. And then you must check hives between rains.

What I try to say: learn to rise up the colony and do not split it in that process. If you need nucs, it is easy to make from fully grown hives.
If you need new hives, don't use excluder. Let the colony produce so much brood s it can.
There is no idea to limit brooding and then split the colony.

If you have super good colony, you may aid smaller colonies with broof frames and gettheir bild up faster.

.
 
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Thanks for that Finman - I'd have to agree with most of it.
 
Thanks for that Finman - I'd have to agree with most of it.

:yeahthat:

I'd say my bees hit maximum expansion at about six or seven frames of brood, at this point its possible to bleed brood and bees away for queenrearing or helping laggers, keep the colony fizzing but delay/prevent swarming and get a good honey crop. This is if it all goes to plan and the weather obliges, fat chance in the last few seasons !
 
Fin man (my phone auto corrects to fun man!) makes a lot of sense.

I have to admit, in my excitement, I start thinking as to how soon I can make a split.

But this re-enforces patience! It will be much easier to make a nuc from a strong full colony, than to do at the first opportunity.
 
Hi Finman,
Many good little nuggets in there to help people keep their nerve - thanks for taking the trouble to teach us.
 
I have to admit, in my excitement, I start thinking as to how soon I can make a split.
.

I don't really want any more splits, I want to consolidate at 10 colonies but have somehow already crept up to 11. I have my horsley boards on standby to try this year. Splits don't excite me not even banana ones; however I could be enticed by a slice of VM's custard tart :)
 
Sound good. However, we split a hive on seven frames of brood when they produced a dozen swarm cells following the "nucleus swarm control method".

How should we have responded to the colony's desire to swarm without splitting?
 
to help people keep their nerve

More like to stop them getting trigger happy!

Those with one colony are the only ones who need to increase. The earlier the better, but honey crop may well/will, suffer, but it is all about priorities. I would not recommend splitting yet, unless there is back-up in hive numbers. As I said, as early as possible - but that does not mean being stupid about it.

Bees have not really gone forward this last week by very much, if at all. Yes a few more bees, but not much really good forage. This 'spring' is not much better overall than last year, IMO, and queens may have to wait some time before a decent mating window arrives.
 
I've had to split one hive twice already and redistribute another 2 frames of brood , just to slow it down as it is becoming a monster!
Its got 3 supers on , at this rate it will have a 4th on tomorrow.
 
Sound good. However, we split a hive on seven frames of brood when they produced a dozen swarm cells following the "nucleus swarm control method".

How should we have responded to the colony's desire to swarm without splitting?

AS or similar is fine, and often neccesary. If you want a strong colony, you then recombine when the new queen is up and running- she should then produce enough queen substance for them not to swarm again. A one-year old queen produces twice as much as a two-year old, or 4 times as much as a three-year old.
 
.
I have read now tens or hundreds of answers, that colony grows and friends tell to split the hive to pieces. Why? That will spoil build up for moths.

Another example: one box (strong!) colony swarms and splits itself to invalid state. Again it takes 2 months that hive is capable to do something.

In this forum is a huge panic to invalidisize hive build up. That is not beekeeping. It is panicing.

First the goal is to get a box full of bees.
After that hive is capable to make 8/10 frames of brood. 2 frames are food what every hive needs.
If hive makes 10/10 frames brood, it really needs another brood box. It it does not get it, it swarms.

It is good to test, what kind of queen you have. Let it lay freely and queen tells itself what it does.
No hurry to put excluder because growing colony consumes all food.
Give second brood box under brood that colony can maintain heat in brood area.

When boath brood boxes are full of bees, add a super over brood and swap brood boxes.

When 2 boxes are near full of bees, add super. It should take 4-5 weeks. Then brood are so much
that you ought to add super every week.

If a queen is good, it lays about 15 langstroth frames. The rest is pollen and honey
10 frames is something, but a little bit tired queen.

in Britain you really need space for pollen stores that colony has food over rainy days. Bees use to store pollen nex to brood. If they do not get polle and protein every day, they eate part of larvae.

You say that you have allways pollen in nature. But but, bees do not forage in rain or in under 15C temps. If you do not believe, that your problem, not mine. I have learned those lessons..

Excluder

you need not hurry with excluder. You may put it then when honey really start to come in.
My hives have usually 4 boxes that honey coming in is serious. Hive may get 10 k honey, but if it is rainy next week, they eate almost all that honey.

If colony must draw foundations at very beginning of expansion, it should not swarm. It must be something wrongit hive dies it. Either it is mad to swarm or queen's laying space is finnish.
For example rape nectar flo may stuck the hive in couple of day.

In my environment biggest reason to swarming are rainy cold weathers when bees have nothing to do.
Same result comes if we have 2-3 weeks blooming cap and fully grown hives have not job to do.
Rainy days added to blooming gap is the worst situation. And then you must check hives between rains.

What I try to say: learn to rise up the colony and do not split it in that process. If you need nucs, it is easy to make from fully grown hives.
If you need new hives, don't use excluder. Let the colony produce so much brood s it can.
There is no idea to limit brooding and then split the colony.

If you have super good colony, you may aid smaller colonies with broof frames and gettheir bild up faster.

.

:iagree:
Yes i agree with most of this, with two good brood boxes full of brood you can make some useful nucs. I'm talking about commercial boxes here.
 
world is full other boys

.

Without looking in the other colony's in my area how can you possibly know if there are any drones around for my queens? 24 days for drones to hatch, 16 days for queens to hatch - I think it will be another 5 weeks at least before I can start rearing queens.
 
Can't do anything yet as I have no drone cells being made. Once hatched how long before the boys are on the wing?
Something like 12 days minimum after emerging from their cell before they have any chance of doing the business.

Without looking in the other colony's in my area how can you possibly know if there are any drones around for my queens? ...
There will be other drones around, even now.
The "swarms in yorkshire" thread indicates that swarming (which generally indicates drone availability) has started, even in Lancashire.
Surely Yorkshire wouldn't be so far behind?
It isn't completely isolated, is it? :)


// ADDED LATER --- OK, I've just seen the Test Match on the telly. Or rather, not seen.
 
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Yes.. It must be better weathers to rear queens.
But I use swarming hives in queen rearing. i change good lavae fron goodselected hives.

Another thing is that even if you succeed to get mated queens, they need lots of nuc frames from bigger hives. Two box hive is not big enough that you may do nucs. - and what you get with that hurry? - nothing.
 
"Can't do anything yet as I have no drone cells being made"

as per others - plenty more fish in the sea

but

1. you'll be wanting unrelated drones

2. strong colonies (advanced) will be your preferred local supply.
 
Nice one finman, As what was told to me recently that adding a super for more space is not always more space because if the weather get cold the bees move down to the brood, congesting the hive and triggering swarm mode
 

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