Does giving a colony more space actually reduce the chance of swarming?

[Beagle23]

In my 4th year as a beek and through discussions with fellow beeks I'm yet to find any examples of healthy colonies not swarming when given ample space in their hives.

Clearly providing additional space at the right time can be beneficial, but if the colony is of a good size aren't they just going to do what comes natural and reproduce?

 

[Walrus]

My understanding is that it is a vast and complicated subject. Genetics, queen age, time of year, strength of colony, amount of space for queen to lay, varroa mite load, availability of drones, and even the weather seem to play a role.

Experienced beekeepers that I have spoken to who keep bees for a living do their best to put bees off swarming by breeding queens from selected non-swarmy stock, re-queening as necessary and providing space at the right time. That can mean adding boxes during a flow or making nucs afterwards. It doesn't always work, but you have a better chance of them not swarming if you do these things rather than not.

I recently looked in the hive that has been my best honey producer for the last two seasons (massive colony in Summer) and the yellow dot queen is still in there. All I did was make sure she had room to lay. She's one to graft from before she does bugger off, which is more likely this year after being so busy laying eggs for two years.

 

[enrico]

Look at this way
Just because they have space doesn't mean they won't swarm
But if they have no space they are likely to swarm!
E

 

[Poly Hive]

Exactly what I was going to put.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

Look at this way
Just because they have space doesn't mean they won't swarm
But if they have no space they are lik
ely to swarm!
E

This where genetics can play a big part. My local mongrels are annual swarmers, every year. Doesn't matter how much room or space they have...off they go, twice a year if they can. The advice at the time was to breed from my least swarmy colonies....I found it ironic and laughable....

 

[For want of a better word]

Now that I have non swarmy stock ( NZ Italians selected for the least swarmy line) I still clip queens and take off an early split ( around 19th April {my big sister's birthday!})annual, every year......

No ordinary beekeeper can prevent swarming.... however there are some who claim to have some magical powers over their bees... but not over their local mongrells!!


Yeghes da

 

[Beagle23]

Look at this way
Just because they have space doesn't mean they won't swarm
But if they have no space they are likely to swarm!
E

I understand that. I'm just wondering if there are examples of healthy colonies not swarming regardless of space. I understand the benefits of extra capacity in the hive but I see no evidence that it is a deterrent to swarming.

 

[Beagle23]

I recently looked in the hive that has been my best honey producer for the last two seasons (massive colony in Summer) and the yellow dot queen is still in there. All I did was make sure she had room to lay. She's one to graft from before she does bugger off, which is more likely this year after being so busy laying eggs for two years.

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks

 

[Beefriendly]

I understand that. I'm just wondering if there are examples of healthy colonies not swarming regardless of space.

I always make sure they have plenty of space....most of my queens swarm in their third season with no preparations to swarm being made before this.i.e as the queen is getting old.
I've no intention of reducing their space to see if they swarm earlier

 

[enrico]

Swarming for bees is reproduction. Most of us try that at every opportunity!

 

[birdsandbees]

There is a certain chap that advocates piling on a towering stack of Supers and claims it stops them swarming! i highly doubt that it works but as it's such a faff to remove them all to inspect he probably never knows!

Even following certain common methods to control swarming won't always work if they have it in their heads to go.

I realise it's doesn't really apply but out of interest..

I recently commented on a Youtube video of a very well known and generally nice guy in the states, his method is vertical splits using a mesh screen between double brood.
1. find colony in swarm mode with QC's on bottom of frames.
2. split the brood boxes removing all QC's from the top box and reassemble with mesh divider board and new entrance for top box at 180 degrees.
3. check bottom box for emergency queen cells a week later.
4. split the two boxes and add an extra to each with a top entrance on the old position to allow foraging from the original top box in.

job done!

I asked how this would stop the bees in the bottom box form swarming when they are already in swarm mode, rammed full of bees and emerging brood, left them multiple Queen cells and then added more bees.

He replied to say it works for him.

Funnily enough in his next video he said he's had some hives swarm into the trees.. but this was the old queen with depleted numbers apparently not the strong one with multiple Virgins emerging???

 

[SteveG]

Hi Steve (Walrus)

Can I ask what you mean / do when you say "or making nucs afterwards"
Thanks

 

[Millet]

Had mongrel bees from the Thirsk area once.they swarmed for fun on 6 frames of brood with a super on top..good Genetics is the way forward me thinks.

 

[Walrus]

Hi Steve (Walrus)

Can I ask what you mean / do when you say "or making nucs afterwards"
Thanks

Hi. Different people do different things at different times including when they make nucs. I try to keep colonies strong to maximise honey, but when the flow is coming to an end I think it's a good time to take out some frames of brood and stores to make up nucs (add new queen or ripe QC). The main colony can build up again for the next flow if there is one.

I'm sure lots of people who take bees to OSR or fruit trees make up nucs afterwards. It would not be a good time to do this after the heather though, because that comes late.

As JBM often says a Demaree can be done before QCs are seen, but when they are getting strong and likely to make QCs soon. This prevents swarming, keeps the colony strong so you get honey, and makes some nice QCs to pop into nucs if that's what you fancy.

 

[Fritillary]

Last year taught me that genetics+good weather+flow are considerably more powerful forces than any amount of faffing about with boxes/frames. The bees that really wanted to swarm did, and did again with new queen after only one month.

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry to put a damper on thinking.Llast year was so abnormal to take from it "lessons" that will apply in general is wishful thinking.

Up here farmers were taking stock into the winter sheds and feeding due to lack of grass. In Scotland ffs!! So normal it was not.

This year is looking far more normal so far with snow in April and my winter tires are staying on another fortnight just in case.

I strongly suspect that genetics is an important factor in swarming. Which is why I do chuckle to myself when people enthuse about getting swarms. It does pay to look the gift horse in the mouth.

PH

 

[masterBK]

But if you requeen captured swarms with a queen of good providence than it can be a way forward (assuming bees in the swarm haven't brought disease with them). That said, I leave collecting swarms to others these days.

 

[For want of a better word]

But if you requeen captured swarms with a queen of good providence than it can be a way forward (assuming bees in the swarm haven't brought disease with them). That said, I leave collecting swarms to others these days.

Better time spent checking you own colonies for swarming preparation..... rather than wasting a day chasing after a swarm of unknown providence!

If it involves ladders/building work/risk taking...best left up to properly insured professional pest controllers ....

 

[madasafish]

But if you requeen captured swarms with a queen of good providence than it can be a way forward (assuming bees in the swarm haven't brought disease with them). That said, I leave collecting swarms to others these days.

+1

When most reported "swarms" round here are tree bumbles, it's a pia..No longer on swarm lists..great.

I requeen all swarms: the queens which head them up appear to have swarmy genes...1 swarm out of my hives last year (TBH).

 

[Fritillary]

Llast year was so abnormal to take from it "lessons" that will apply in general is wishful thinking.

Up here farmers were taking stock into the winter sheds and feeding due to lack of grass. In Scotland ffs!! So normal it was not.

This year is looking far more normal so far with snow in April and my winter tires are staying on another fortnight just in case.

I strongly suspect that genetics is an important factor in swarming. Which is why I do chuckle to myself when people enthuse about getting swarms. It does pay to look the gift horse in the mouth.

PH

Even last year, in the same place, some were swarmers and some were not... Genetics, indeed.