Do you have VSH Queens

[Finman]

In Scotland the wild red deer, the wild salmon and the wild haggis are best.

You forgot native oatmeal.
What about mashed potato? Native food.

In Finland native food is Pizza.

 

[Murox]

You forgot native oatmeal.
What about mashed potato? Native food.

In Finland native food is Pizza.

You left out the 'new' iconic Scots snack of the deep-fried Mars Bar – that Stonehaven chippy has a lot to answer for.

 

[Robinredcar]

Any fool . No need to use brain.

Robin, how do you measure the exellence of native stock? Or is it just feeling to keep some petty.

When you think other domestic animals, how often native animals are the best?

Why is it that for many thousands of years the native bees survived and through many different situations?
Take your buckfast bee you buy one in leave it a year or two and have to buy in more because the stock shows f2 or f3 aggression (that is a human manipulation that will have lasted less than 3 years without requiring yet more intervention, many thousands of years is significantly longer than 3 years is it not?)

How many of these other domestic stock you talk of open mate?

No like most things when humans think they know better end up making a mess of things, bees are a good example, kray fish would be another, grey squirrels another. Keeping native bees suited to our climate that survive well would be the best reason for keeping them over imported bees, how do you think varroa mites ended up in the uk to start with?

 

[Finman]

r. Keeping native bees suited to our climate that survive well would be the best reason for keeping them over imported bees, how do you think varroa mites ended up in the uk to start with?

We buy Italian bees directly from Italy every year and they do very well in Finland.

Carniolan bees do very well too. No problem with imported bees.

Buckfast is good, but it is impossible to keep its genepool.

Yes Buckfast F2 generation has 25% Buckfast and 75% Black bee. What do you think, from where it has got its angry genes?

 

[Finman]

How many of these other domestic stock you talk of open mate?

It seems, that you do not understand what means animal domestication or domestic animal.

Do you know what means breeding.. If you breed, then it must be controlled mating.

 

[Repwoc]

In nature it's undesirable because it wastes energy that could be put into reproduction, that's why it only seems to shine through in dier times. In kept bees it reduces honey production.

Bees do lots of things to keep themselves healthy, eg coating the internal surfaces of the hive with propolis, removal of dead bees from the hive etc. Are you saying that these traits are undesirable too?

 

[Finman]

Bees do lots of things to keep themselves healthy, eg coating the internal surfaces of the hive with propolis, removal of dead bees from the hive etc. Are you saying that these traits are undesirable too?

I wonder, that bees forage all kind of muddy water, and they do not became sick, neither brood.

 

[Robinredcar]

We buy Italian bees directly from Italy every year and they do very well in Finland.

Carniolan bees do very well too. No problem with imported bees.

Buckfast is good, but it is impossible to keep its genepool.

Yes Buckfast F2 generation has 25% Buckfast and 75% Black bee. What do you think, from where it has got its angry genes?

I dont know what bees are native in Finland, in England its the black bee, the aggressive behaviour of buckfast f2 is because the genes of the buckfast are not meant to be in the uk its is due to humans importing them, if you persist with the buckfast open mating after several generations you usually find the bees favour amm genetics for a very good reason.......because amm have evolved to live hear aml and amc have not! And vice versa mixing amm genes where aml have evolved would prove exactly the same in the opisite direction.

 

[Robinredcar]

Bees do lots of things to keep themselves healthy, eg coating the internal surfaces of the hive with propolis, removal of dead bees from the hive etc. Are you saying that these traits are undesirable too?

Read it properly again, in nature its undesirable. Why on earth wpuld any of the traits you mentioned be undesirable?!

 

[Finman]

I dont know what bees are native in Finland, in England its the black bee, the aggressive

We do not have native bees. We had German Black bees but varroa killed them almost all .

Bees must be aggressive in nature. That is why they have a sting. They protect their hives and foodstores. They do not sting for fun on meadows.

To be gentle and not to swarm, those are gene mistakes in bees' genome. A human takes advantage from those features. When bees cross, their genome will healed to natural, and they get back their original feature.

There are much honeyber races in the world which are painfull to nurse.

Gentle is nothing "native feature". British emmigrants moved Black bees to every continent, where they moved. But nowadays there are extremely rare places on globe, where Black beed are kept any more.

 

[Repwoc]

Read it properly again, in nature its undesirable. Why on earth wpuld any of the traits you mentioned be undesirable?!

It was you that said traits that cause the bees to "waste energy" are undesirable, viz:

In nature it's undesirable because it wastes energy that could be put into reproduction,

So it seems from your posts above that you have no real evidence for your claims, you have no desire to find any evidence or data and your entire thesis is wholly based on your biased opinion.

 

[user 20297]

You forgot native oatmeal.
What about mashed potato? Native food.

In Finland native food is Pizza.

We have imported pizza in Scotland, but native pizza in Italy is always better.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I dont know what bees are native in Finland, in England its the black bee, the aggressive behaviour of buckfast f2 is because the genes of the buckfast are not meant to be in the uk its is due to humans importing them, if you persist with the buckfast open mating after several generations you usually find the bees favour amm genetics for a very good reason.......because amm have evolved to live hear aml and amc have not! And vice versa mixing amm genes where aml have evolved would prove exactly the same in the opisite direction.

Total and utter rubbish!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I dont know what bees are native in Finland, in England its the black bee, the aggressive behaviour of buckfast f2 is because the genes of the buckfast are not meant to be in the uk its is due to humans importing them, if you persist with the buckfast open mating after several generations you usually find the bees favour amm genetics for a very good reason.......because amm have evolved to live hear aml and amc have not! And vice versa mixing amm genes where aml have evolved would prove exactly the same in the opisite direction.

I have Buckfast. I don’t get F2 aggression and never have.
The Buckies get darker as the generations go on because there are more black drones in the area than orange ones.

 

[Finman]

We have imported pizza in Scotland, but native pizza in Italy is always better.

I found from google a recipe for " traditional deep-fried Scottish pizza".

 

[Robinredcar]

We do not have native bees. We had German Black bees but varroa killed them almost all .

Bees must be aggressive in nature. That is why they have a sting. They protect their hives and foodstores. They do not sting for fun on meadows.

To be gentle and not to swarm, those are gene mistakes in bees' genome. A human takes advantage from those features. When bees cross, their genome will healed to natural, and they get back their original feature.

There are much honeyber races in the world which are painfull to nurse.

Gentle is nothing "native feature". British emmigrants moved Black bees to every continent, where they moved. But nowadays there are extremely rare places on globe, where Black beed are kept any more.

There is more aggressive bees than others, when you mix diffrent subspecies with others they can become more aggressive don't see you point?
Yea you have just reinforced my point, black bees moved to climates that are not native to them tend to die out, like I said moving none native honey bees to the UK is the same principle.

 

[Robinredcar]

Total and utter rubbish!

What part don't you agree with?

 

[Robinredcar]

It was you that said traits that cause the bees to "waste energy" are undesirable, viz:

So it seems from your posts above that you have no real evidence for your claims, you have no desire to find any evidence or data and your entire thesis is wholly based on your biased opinion.

No I didn't read it again before you waste my time, I said the hygienic gene wastes the bees energy in nature. I did not say anything about propolis you added that for some reason?!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What part don't you agree with?

I think total is a clue. Have you actually done any research on this subject or is it the usual prejudice?

 

[Murox]

I dont know what bees are native in Finland, in England its the black bee, the aggressive behaviour of buckfast f2 is because the genes of the buckfast are not meant to be in the uk its is due to humans importing them, if you persist with the buckfast open mating after several generations you usually find the bees favour amm genetics for a very good reason.......because amm have evolved to live hear aml and amc have not! And vice versa mixing amm genes where aml have evolved would prove exactly the same in the opisite direction.

Although there is a lot of speculation about the honeybees lineage, understanding the origins are important as strong selection for adaptations occurred over millennia, the so called native black bee arose from a group confined within an area that interbreed so much that there was very little, if any, variation. That's how all the races evolved.

“The indigenous range of Apis mellifera mellifera stretched from the Atlantic seaboard of Norway, Britain, Ireland and France eastward across Western, Northern and Central Europe north of the Alps and Carpathians to the Urals and beyond; and probably down to the Iberian Peninsula. Domesticated in Europe its various common names include: “Dark European Honeybee” (English), “L’abeille noire” (French), “Die dunkle Biene” (German) and “Det mörka Nordiska Biet” (Swedish). European dark honeybees have a short tongue and are typically small, stocky bees with a number of ecotypes (variants) in different geographical locations. Colours can vary from jet back to dark brown.”

Bear in mind the polyandrous mating practices of the virgin queen allows, or even encourages, out-breeding to occur unless prevented in some way (e.g. isolation or human intervention). Hybrids are often aggressive by nature, although beekeepers obviously want non-aggressive gene pools.
You may like to read this about honey bee species.
Also - Ruttner (1988) classic hypothesis supported by a set of morphometric studies (Cornuet and Fresnaye,1989; Cornuet et al., 1988; Lebdigrissa et al.,1991). And Subspecies susceptibility to diseases - Dietemann et al.2009.