Do you have VSH Queens

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The US research you are talking about is, I assume, Seeley, which has been discussed ad-nauseum on this site. But in summary, Seeley showed exactly the above scenario. Very high swarming tendency, and the resultant small colonies and brood breaks, allowed genetic lines to just about stay ahead of varroa. But this is completely different to saying that those bees are resistant to varroa.

he also found that the genetic line had become a lot narrower, with only some of the original pre varroa lines surviving meaning less genetic diversity which is never a good thing, at the same time he didn't really find any mite 'resistance' in his studies with colonies still dying out after a few years without treatment.

 

[Boston Bees]

I'd disagree, try leaving your bees with no varroa treatment I think the given mortality is around 95%

Do you have any evidence for the mortality of tree-dwelling colonies?

How could anyone possibly know this, without tracking where every swarm that left the tree went, and how long it survived, and how long its swarms survived for, and so on?

So how can you compare?

All that we can say is that some of the genetics might survive. Well, that would be true under your 95% figure too.

In fact, given that you are comparing a wild colony with my hives, I assume by "mortality" you mean "there is a continuous presence of bees in a specific hive, without a break". In that case, the mortality of a tree colony is definitely 100%.

My problem is that the fact that honey-bee genetics don't completely die out in "wild" situations allows for some misty-eyed thinking about how wonderful their genetics must be. But in reality, it's just maths. Honeybees breed like rabbits, so some survival, even in a very hostile environment, isn't surprising.

 

[Robinredcar]

he also found that the genetic line had become a lot narrower, with only some of the original pre varroa lines surviving meaning less genetic diversity which is never a good thing, at the same time he didn't really find any mite 'resistance' in his studies with colonies still dying out after a few years without treatment.

Yea thats why I said the general consensus is around 95% loss in none treated colonys? In the area there is nearly the same number of colonys now as there was pre varroa, again I would take this as the bees are resistant of the mites how else would you measure survival rates?

 

[Robinredcar]

Do you have any evidence for the mortality of tree-dwelling colonies?

How could anyone possibly know this, without tracking where every swarm that left the tree went, and how long it survived, and how long its swarms survived for, and so on?

So how can you compare?

All that we can say is that some of the genetics might survive. Well, that would be true under your 95% figure too.

My problem is that the fact that honey-bee colonies don't completely die out in "wild" situations allows for some misty-eyed thinking about how wonderful their genetics must be. But in reality, it's just maths. Honeybees breed like rabbits, so some survival, even in a very hostile environment, isn't surprising.

No again I don't go looking for them, as I said above the evidence Seeley gathered from pre varroa and after (more than 25 years?) Shows the same amount of colonys in the area surely this shows the bees have survived?
How do you spose the bees like rabbits survive in the wild? I'd say it was more to do with genetics than anything else because no doubt they have varroa mites still?

 

[Boston Bees]

Yea thats why I said the general consensus is around 95% loss in none treated colonys? In the area there is nearly the same number of colonys now as there was pre varroa, again I would take this as the bees are resistant of the mites how else would you measure survival rates?

Apples and pears.

Given that those wild colonies are probably swarming 5 times per year, the mortality rate is still vast.

Plus (whisper it quietly) there are managed colonies, no doubt throwing out swarms, within a few miles of Seeley's "isolated" forest. We are told that he has tested the genetics and that they aren't a factor, but I do wonder .......

 

[Boston Bees]

Shows the same amount of colonys in the area surely this shows the bees have survived?

Yes. Yes. Yes. And again, Yes.

They have survived

This does not mean they are varroa resistant, or VSH.

It means that they swarm a lot.

This is of limited use to beekeepers though. Try getting a honey crop from a colony that swarms three times a year.

Ask yourself why US beekeepers haven't just gone to Seeley's forest, collected a swarm, bred from it, and made their millions by selling varroa resistant bees.

 

[Robinredcar]

Apples and pears.

Given that those wild colonies are probably swarming 5 times per year, the mortality rate is still vast.

Plus (whisper it quietly) there are managed colonies, no doubt throwing out swarms, within a few miles of Seeley's "isolated" forest. We are told that he has tested the genetics and that they aren't a factor, but I do wonder .......

I'll look again but I don't rememeber the swarming 5 times a year.

 

[Robinredcar]

Yes. Yes. Yes. And again, Yes.

They have survived

This does not mean they are varroa resistant, or VSH.

It means that they swarm a lot.

This is of limited use to beekeepers though. Try getting a honey crop from a colony that swarms three times a year.

Ask yourself why US beekeepers haven't just gone to Seeley's forest, collected a swarm, bred from it, and made their millions by selling varroa resistant bees.

You know that bees carry varroa when they swarm don't you? Even with a brood brake the varroa are still present, as I said it does help but it does not stop varroa.
I dare say there are kept bees that could breed with Seeleys wild bees, but again from what I rememeber its not likely.
I bet you still havnt watched that link have you?

 

[Boston Bees]

You know that bees carry varroa when they swarm don't you? Even with a brood brake the varroa are still present, as I said it does help but it does not stop varroa.
I dare say there are kept bees that could breed with Seeleys wild bees, but again from what I rememeber its not likely.
I bet you still havnt watched that link have you?

I watched that video last year. Very interesting. I agree with its conclusions that attempting to breed for specific traits is probably futile. But that's not what this discussion is about. So I'm not clear what you are saying the video proves? Could you point me to the time (mins, secs) in the video that you would like me to rewatch, and explain what point you are making?

 

[Finman]

educated guess, it would be difficult for me to know where wild colonys live I don't spend my time looking for them.

Wild colonys have same genes as tamed bees around the district. When wild colony dies, the place get a new swarm.
.

 

[Robinredcar]

I watched that video last year. Very interesting. I agree with its conclusions that attempting to breed for specific traits is probably futile. But that's not what this discussion is about. So I'm not clear what you are saying the video proves? Could you point me to the time (mins, secs) in the video that you would like me to rewatch, and explain what point you are making?

I dont think the videos conclusion was about breeding for specific traits, it was about how the native bees genetics seem to be favorable over imported stock. It touchs on the survival rates of bees left to their own devices and breeding. The point I'm making as stated above in my first post was to start with more native bees and to use more wild like bees as they are surviving without chemicals.

 

[Boston Bees]

I dont think the videos conclusion was about breeding for specific traits, it was about how the native bees genetics seem to be favorable over imported stock. It touchs on the survival rates of bees left to their own devices and breeding. The point I'm making as stated above in my first post was to start with more native bees and to use more wild like bees as they are surviving without chemicals.

I'm not debating local vs imports. That's a whole other argument.

This issue continues to be that you think there are populations of "wild like bees" that are genetically different to the bees that are in most beekeepers' hives.

There aren't. Not in GB anyway. And that video doesn't say that there are

 

[Finman]

I dont think the videos conclusion was about breeding for specific traits, it was about how the native bees genetics seem to be favorable over imported stock.

Yes how? How unselected native bees are better than tens of years breeded stocks?

USA does not have native bees . All are imported.

It is like Philippine hostipital nurses. Their professional skills disappear during flight from Fhilippines to Finland.

 

[Robinredcar]

I'm not debating local vs imports. That's a whole other argument.

This issue continues to be that you think there are populations of "wild like bees" that are genetically different to the bees that are in most beekeepers' hives.

There aren't. Not in GB anyway. And that video doesn't say that there are

There's not much to debate with imports vs natives really, any fool can see the benefits of native stock in its own environment is beneficial.
I only have a basic knowledge of genetics, but there's a reason bees living in the wild unkept and varroa treatment free live on.......... I very much doubt all bees living in the wild go to kept hives and are replaced by kept swarms every few years.

 

[Robinredcar]

Yes how? How unselected native bees are better than tens of years breeded stocks?

USA does not have native bees . All are imported.

It is like Philippine hostipital nurses. Their professional skills disappear during flight from Fhilippines to Finland.

How is because they evolved over a tens of thousands of years to survive hear, not afew tens of years of human manipulation?!

I know USA don't have native apis mellifera of any kind........ I stated that above if you read the full posts not just the bits that upset you!

 

[Bazzer]

I've read all this and so far I've avoided dipping my toe in the water ... I'm not sure that VSH bees are the answer ... there seems some evidence that once these bees are either moved to a diffferent location or the queens are used in another colony that there is limited transfer of the desired trait - certainly second generation queens, open mated, do not seem to rear bees with the same hygienic ability.

My bees have not been treated now for 10 years ... and before we start an argument I am NOT in favour of everyone following my path ... I have not lost excessive numbers of colonies and those I have lost I can honestly say were not heavily infested with varroa - I know because I regularly monitor my colonies with proper testing for varroa.

My bees survive and thrive, there are varroa present in the colonies, but they rarely get to the point where I have concerns. I don't see any diseases in my hives and they provide a reasonable honey crop. I've reared my own queens and I've bought in queens - currently the majority of colonies I have are small black bees but it's clear just looking at them there is a broad cross section of genetics as I do see mixed colours and sizes in all the colonies. Those colonies with queens they have raised themselves are no different - local mongrels.

Over a few years I've compared them with similar colonies, kept in similar hives and conditions - less than a mile from where I live but the only difference is that those colonies I have treated with OA by sublimation. I am confident that the treatment reduced the varroa load in those hives although - having tested them prior to treatment, the levels of varroa were largely the same as those in my own hives and subsequently yielded very similar levels.

I often ponder on why, when I hear reports of massive varroa loads, DWV etc. and dead outs in other colonies within my location, it is that I seem to get lucky ?

I have said it before, I can't prove it, but is it also to do with the way we keep our bees that some can survive without treatment and live alongside varroa ?

What do I do ?... Well:

1. My hives are highly insulated.
2. They have open mesh floors but the stands offer a skirt to prevent draughts
3. They are foundationless
4. They are lightly inspected (I don't fiddle with them .. inspections are brief, minimal and only for four reasons):
a) Are there eggs and is there brood
b) Is there signs of disease
c) Have they enough stores
d) Are there any queen cells
5. They feed, largely, on the stores they bring in - apart from a pre-winter top up if required.
6. I don't spring clean, I only change frames when it's really necessary.
7. I tend to only make increase when a colony is of a mind to swarm .. I don't continually break down colonies to make more colonies - and if I do, it's only with a frame or two of bees and a bought in queen or swarm cell.

On top of this they are kept in a semi-urban location so there is a wide variety of forage available from early spring until late in November. I suspect their foraging (because there is such a variety available within a short distance) is not on a very wide radius. My apiary is in a very sheltered position and the micro climate in the area is very mild.

So .. does this all contribute to a regime where the bees are able to cope ?

Do continual fiddling and aggressive varroa treatments lead to bees that are stressed and more prone to disease, colony weakness and a propensity to infestation ? Who knows ?

Perhaps we should all be testing colonies regularly for varroa and giving those colonies, where levels are demonstrably low, the opportunity to live without treatment whilst treating those where varroa levels appear to be unmanageable ?

When I worked in Africa I was very rarely bitten by mosquitos ...my business partner, when he accompanies me and was in the same location, ate similar food, drank similar things was plagued by mossie bites ... he would get up in the morning looking like a swarm of vampires had attacked him and at the same time I had no bites at all ? Why is it that nature can sometimes be selective ?

And... perhaps, varroa can be selective in the hosts they colonise ?

Who knows ?

I have been on the same page as you for many years, 1-5 identical. .Recently I have been looking to make more rapid increases with a view to eventually making queens and nucs availble for sale - so far it has gone ok - fingers crossed for the winter.

 

[Finman]

There's not much to debate with imports vs natives really, any fool can see the benefits of native stock in its own environment is beneficial.

Any fool . No need to use brain.

Robin, how do you measure the exellence of native stock? Or is it just feeling to keep some petty.

When you think other domestic animals, how often native animals are the best?

 

[user 20297]

When you think other domestic animals, how often native animals are the best?

In Scotland the wild red deer, the wild salmon and the wild haggis are best.

 

[Finman]

How is because they evolved over a tens of thousands of years to survive hear,

10 000 years ago Britain was under ice cover and Europe was tundra up to Mefiterranian coast. There was no Apis mellifera in Europe.

Last Ice Ace started 100 000 years ago. Think, what survived here?

 

[Finman]

In Scotland the wild red deer, the wild salmon and the wild haggis are best.

Sure. Wild domestic animals are best. Survivors!