Do you have VSH Queens

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm not sure the British seminar I watched was a PhD but I'm almost certain the one Tom Seeley produced was?

But Tom Seeley has no knowledge/not done any research of feral British bees

 

[Erichalfbee]

In nature it's undesirable because it wastes energy that could be put into reproduction, that's why it only seems to shine through in dier times. In kept bees it reduces honey production.

Not much point in that reproduction though if it is sick. Surely it’s better that the bees recognise infested/infected larvae/pupae and deal with them?

 

[mbc]

What about the wild populations that have survived varroa pretty much on their own, surely we should be trying to select from them over buying in more bees?

My mums old saying "if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride" springs to mind

 

[Ian123]

Wales, Scotlan, Ireland mainly where the black bees havnt been diluted? Starting from close to native stock and not treating incures heavy losses but also forces the normally undesirable hygienic trait according to research i watched on the national honey show YouTube channel, I can find the link if you've not already seen it?

Trials I’ve seen and I’ll look for the paper show little if any difference in colony size with hygienic bees. A simple explanation could be if the bees are reducing mites or disease present in all hives, general hive hygiene or bee longevity balances any reduction in bees that are already compromised. So far from an unwanted trait the reverse could be true. Also if people start quoting or looking for survivors it helps if they understand the mechanisms at play. In sealys survivors these are small unmanaged colonies that swarm on a regular basis. It’s pointless suggesting a colony has survivor/hygienic qualities if these don’t exist and it’s simply brood breaks that allow it’s continued existence. Even if some are 100% hygienic the trait is not fixed and is likely lost or reduced when they chuck a swarm. Some claim treatment free yet make continued splits or minimal management that encourages brood breaks and reduces mites. In all examples of survivors being moved/examined and compared in trials they fair no better. This has happened the world over. If it was as easy as bees and varroa eventually find a balance WHY LOOK IN THE UK! Varroa has been present in honey bees in other regions/countries for many decades longer. As an example this was the basis of the US work with Primorsky queens many years ago, that far surpasses any UK research or program. Guess what it didn’t prove the silver bullet! Proper breeders like B+(Carnis) and the Buckfast groups have hygienic queens. Yet at present these can only be maintained by II or proper! Isolated mating. Even then when 2 hygienic lines are used resulting off spring are assessed. Even in these instances I’m sure many are found wanting. I’m not aware of any reviewed work showing survivors in the uk native or not, can any provide a source?

 

[Boston Bees]

Trials I’ve seen and I’ll look for the paper show little if any difference in colony size with hygienic bees. A simple explanation could be if the bees are reducing mites or disease present in all hives, general hive hygiene or bee longevity balances any reduction in bees that are already compromised. So far from an unwanted trait the reverse could be true. Also if people start quoting or looking for survivors it helps if they understand the mechanisms at play. In sealys survivors these are small unmanaged colonies that swarm on a regular basis. It’s pointless suggesting a colony has survivor/hygienic qualities if these don’t exist and it’s simply brood breaks that allow it’s continued existence. Even if some are 100% hygienic the trait is not fixed and is likely lost or reduced when they chuck a swarm. Some claim treatment free yet make continued splits or minimal management that encourages brood breaks and reduces mites. In all examples of survivors being moved/examined and compared in trials they fair no better. This has happened the world over. If it was as easy as bees and varroa eventually find a balance WHY LOOK IN THE UK! Varroa has been present in honey bees in other regions/countries for many decades longer. As an example this was the basis of the US work with Primorsky queens many years ago, that far surpasses any UK research or program. Guess what it didn’t prove the silver bullet! Proper breeders like B+(Carnis) and the Buckfast groups have hygienic queens. Yet at present these can only be maintained by II or proper! Isolated mating. Even then when 2 hygienic lines are used resulting off spring are assessed. Even in these instances I’m sure many are found wanting. I’m not aware of any reviewed work showing survivors in the uk native or not, can any provide a source?

Exactly

In terms of making a real-world, practical difference to beekeepers, VSH is a combination of pipe dream and marketing gimmick.

But its followers will always be able to claim that "if only everyone would do XXX, it would work ...." (knowing full well that, whatever XXX is, this will never happen) so the idea will never die.

 

[Murox]

What about the wild populations that have survived varroa pretty much on their own, surely we should be trying to select from them over buying in more bees?

To make those ideas into a reality, there needs to be a designed process from the start. There is no coherent formal process, you know simple things like sourcing, prioritisation, testing, integration, co-operation, working together. Consequently 'support' tends to be based on who has the best demonstration/who lobbies/shouts the loudest.

 

[Ian123]

As an aside since the start of this site and the previous bbka site we have instances of people suggesting tolerant bees even varroa cures. Can any show examples in the subsequent decades of the following research or examples of these resistant survivors making any impact or headway in day to day beekeeping. So is it any wonder that those that have been around a while are asking for evidence. It’s not like the internet doesn’t encourage it’s share of nutters after all

 

[Finman]

Iand 123

Hygienic bees do not mean that they can resist varroa.

Hygienic bees mean, that how much the hive clean killed brood in 24 hours. But how many percent? Some clean 40% and some 70%. Seldom they do it 100%.

 

[Ian123]

Iand 123

Hygienic bees do not mean that they can resist varroa.

Hygienic bees mean, that how much the hive clean killed brood in 24 hours. But how many percent? Some clean 40% and some 70%. Seldom they do it 100%.

Yes I agree with you, I’m not the 1 climbing trees looking for them

 

[pargyle]

I've read all this and so far I've avoided dipping my toe in the water ... I'm not sure that VSH bees are the answer ... there seems some evidence that once these bees are either moved to a diffferent location or the queens are used in another colony that there is limited transfer of the desired trait - certainly second generation queens, open mated, do not seem to rear bees with the same hygienic ability.

My bees have not been treated now for 10 years ... and before we start an argument I am NOT in favour of everyone following my path ... I have not lost excessive numbers of colonies and those I have lost I can honestly say were not heavily infested with varroa - I know because I regularly monitor my colonies with proper testing for varroa.

My bees survive and thrive, there are varroa present in the colonies, but they rarely get to the point where I have concerns. I don't see any diseases in my hives and they provide a reasonable honey crop. I've reared my own queens and I've bought in queens - currently the majority of colonies I have are small black bees but it's clear just looking at them there is a broad cross section of genetics as I do see mixed colours and sizes in all the colonies. Those colonies with queens they have raised themselves are no different - local mongrels.

Over a few years I've compared them with similar colonies, kept in similar hives and conditions - less than a mile from where I live but the only difference is that those colonies I have treated with OA by sublimation. I am confident that the treatment reduced the varroa load in those hives although - having tested them prior to treatment, the levels of varroa were largely the same as those in my own hives and subsequently yielded very similar levels.

I often ponder on why, when I hear reports of massive varroa loads, DWV etc. and dead outs in other colonies within my location, it is that I seem to get lucky ?

I have said it before, I can't prove it, but is it also to do with the way we keep our bees that some can survive without treatment and live alongside varroa ?

What do I do ?... Well:

1. My hives are highly insulated.
2. They have open mesh floors but the stands offer a skirt to prevent draughts
3. They are foundationless
4. They are lightly inspected (I don't fiddle with them .. inspections are brief, minimal and only for four reasons):
a) Are there eggs and is there brood
b) Is there signs of disease
c) Have they enough stores
d) Are there any queen cells
5. They feed, largely, on the stores they bring in - apart from a pre-winter top up if required.
6. I don't spring clean, I only change frames when it's really necessary.
7. I tend to only make increase when a colony is of a mind to swarm .. I don't continually break down colonies to make more colonies - and if I do, it's only with a frame or two of bees and a bought in queen or swarm cell.

On top of this they are kept in a semi-urban location so there is a wide variety of forage available from early spring until late in November. I suspect their foraging (because there is such a variety available within a short distance) is not on a very wide radius. My apiary is in a very sheltered position and the micro climate in the area is very mild.

So .. does this all contribute to a regime where the bees are able to cope ?

Do continual fiddling and aggressive varroa treatments lead to bees that are stressed and more prone to disease, colony weakness and a propensity to infestation ? Who knows ?

Perhaps we should all be testing colonies regularly for varroa and giving those colonies, where levels are demonstrably low, the opportunity to live without treatment whilst treating those where varroa levels appear to be unmanageable ?

When I worked in Africa I was very rarely bitten by mosquitos ...my business partner, when he accompanies me and was in the same location, ate similar food, drank similar things was plagued by mossie bites ... he would get up in the morning looking like a swarm of vampires had attacked him and at the same time I had no bites at all ? Why is it that nature can sometimes be selective ?

And... perhaps, varroa can be selective in the hosts they colonise ?

Who knows ?

 

[Robinredcar]

So guessing rather than knowing?

educated guess, it would be difficult for me to know where wild colonys live I don't spend my time looking for them.

 

[Robinredcar]

Yes please. Can I have the link, Robin?
I’ve mentioned research on feral colonies showing they were descended from neighbouring beekeepers but when I do bring it up somebody always tells me it was a phd thesis and not peer reviewed.

Sorry for the late reply got really busy at work. I'll post the link now.https://youtu.be/w-pAQt6pFhM

 

[Boston Bees]

educated guess, it would be difficult for me to know where wild colonys live I don't spend my time looking for them.

Wild colonies of bees that have no interaction with (i.e. potentially mating with, or swarmed from) managed hives?

Perhaps they could be found at the end of a rainbow?

Genetically isolated populations of "wild bees" are a myth, in GB at least. They can't, and don't, exist. Think about the distance that a virgin queen can travel to mate, and you will see this.

 

[Robinredcar]

I've read all this and so far I've avoided dipping my toe in the water ... I'm not sure that VSH bees are the answer ... there seems some evidence that once these bees are either moved to a diffferent location or the queens are used in another colony that there is limited transfer of the desired trait - certainly second generation queens, open mated, do not seem to rear bees with the same hygienic ability.

My bees have not been treated now for 10 years ... and before we start an argument I am NOT in favour of everyone following my path ... I have not lost excessive numbers of colonies and those I have lost I can honestly say were not heavily infested with varroa - I know because I regularly monitor my colonies with proper testing for varroa.

My bees survive and thrive, there are varroa present in the colonies, but they rarely get to the point where I have concerns. I don't see any diseases in my hives and they provide a reasonable honey crop. I've reared my own queens and I've bought in queens - currently the majority of colonies I have are small black bees but it's clear just looking at them there is a broad cross section of genetics as I do see mixed colours and sizes in all the colonies. Those colonies with queens they have raised themselves are no different - local mongrels.

Over a few years I've compared them with similar colonies, kept in similar hives and conditions - less than a mile from where I live but the only difference is that those colonies I have treated with OA by sublimation. I am confident that the treatment reduced the varroa load in those hives although - having tested them prior to treatment, the levels of varroa were largely the same as those in my own hives and subsequently yielded very similar levels.

I often ponder on why, when I hear reports of massive varroa loads, DWV etc. and dead outs in other colonies within my location, it is that I seem to get lucky ?

I have said it before, I can't prove it, but is it also to do with the way we keep our bees that some can survive without treatment and live alongside varroa ?

What do I do ?... Well:

1. My hives are highly insulated.
2. They have open mesh floors but the stands offer a skirt to prevent draughts
3. They are foundationless
4. They are lightly inspected (I don't fiddle with them .. inspections are brief, minimal and only for four reasons):
a) Are there eggs and is there brood
b) Is there signs of disease
c) Have they enough stores
d) Are there any queen cells
5. They feed, largely, on the stores they bring in - apart from a pre-winter top up if required.
6. I don't spring clean, I only change frames when it's really necessary.
7. I tend to only make increase when a colony is of a mind to swarm .. I don't continually break down colonies to make more colonies - and if I do, it's only with a frame or two of bees and a bought in queen or swarm cell.

On top of this they are kept in a semi-urban location so there is a wide variety of forage available from early spring until late in November. I suspect their foraging (because there is such a variety available within a short distance) is not on a very wide radius. My apiary is in a very sheltered position and the micro climate in the area is very mild.

So .. does this all contribute to a regime where the bees are able to cope ?

Do continual fiddling and aggressive varroa treatments lead to bees that are stressed and more prone to disease, colony weakness and a propensity to infestation ? Who knows ?

Perhaps we should all be testing colonies regularly for varroa and giving those colonies, where levels are demonstrably low, the opportunity to live without treatment whilst treating those where varroa levels appear to be unmanageable ?

When I worked in Africa I was very rarely bitten by mosquitos ...my business partner, when he accompanies me and was in the same location, ate similar food, drank similar things was plagued by mossie bites ... he would get up in the morning looking like a swarm of vampires had attacked him and at the same time I had no bites at all ? Why is it that nature can sometimes be selective ?

And... perhaps, varroa can be selective in the hosts they colonise ?

Who knows ?

I think at a guess the shorter forage radius coupled with queen breeding would logically help with varroa. Shorter radius would usually mean less chance of coming into contact with other coloneys on the same forage? Also breeding from your own stock the bees could have selected genes that are most suited to their environment hence why there is variants of Apis mellifera to start with?

 

[Robinredcar]

Wild colonies of bees that have no interaction with (i.e. potentially mating with, or swarmed from) managed hives?

Perhaps they could be found at the end of a rainbow?

Genetically isolated populations of "wild bees" are a myth, in GB at least. They can't, and don't, exist. Think about the distance that a virgin queen can travel to mate, and you will see this.

What makes you think a wild colony hasn't interacted with kept colonys? Why could they have not interacted on a minimal scale? You can go looking for the end of rainbows if you like but your probably more likley to find more wild colonys in areas where there is less human intervention.

 

[Boston Bees]

What makes you think a wild colony hasn't interacted with kept colonys?

They do interact. That's why they aren't "wild". There are no domestic bees and wild bees. There are just bees.

Think about it. Where do you think most "wild" colonies come from? They are swarms that escape from managed hives and move into a tree. And where do you think a lot of the swarms that beekeepers catch and put in hives each spring come from? Tree colonies. There's a constant movement of bees from tree to hive to tree to hive.

Add to this the fact that a lot of "continuously populated" tree colonies die off every few years and are repopulated by a swarm, probably from a managed hive.

This is why it is hopeless to imagine that there is a strain of hardy naturally-varroa-resistant bees living in a tree somewhere that you can take and use in your hives.

If tree-dwelling colonies do seem to survive for a few years, this is because their small cavities cause them to swarm several times a year, which provides natural brood-breaks, keeping varroa at manageable levels for a while. But as soon as you put these bees in a large hive, and discourage swarming, all that goes out of the window.

 

[Robinredcar]

They do interact. That's why they aren't "wild". There are no domestic bees and wild bees. There are just bees.

Think about it. Where do you think most "wild" colonies come from? They are swarms that escape from managed hives and move into a tree. And where do you think a lot of the swarms that beekeepers catch and put in hives each spring come from? Tree colonies. There's a constant movement of bees from tree to hive to tree to hive.

Add to this the fact that a lot of "continuously populated" tree colonies die off every few years and are repopulated by a swarm, probably from a managed hive.

This is why it is hopeless to imagine that there is a strain of hardy naturally-varroa-resistant bees living in a tree somewhere that you can take and use in your hives.

If tree-dwelling colonies do seem to survive for a few years, this is because their small cavities cause them to swarm several times a year, which provides natural brood-breaks, keeping varroa at manageable levels for a while. But as soon as you put these bees in a hive, and discourage swarming, all that goes out of the window.

That's not fully correct, wild living colnys don't always die, they do however move on to new places quite often and when there is no human intervention there is obviously no chemical treatments yet they do survive and in the USA where they keep Apis melifera of diffremt subspecies all are none native but some live wild there has been some great research that started from before varroa hit and has Continued throughout which does show colonys surviving on their own, not so much has been done hear in the uk which is a shame.
I also didn't call them domestic bees for a good reason, kept bees can swarm and live in the wild unkept by humans like you said.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If tree-dwelling colonies do seem to survive for a few years, this is because their small cavities cause them to swarm several times a year, which provides natural brood-breaks, keeping varroa at manageable levels for a while. But as soon as you put these bees in a large hive, and discourage swarming, all that goes out of the window.

For the first year in four I have two swarms from our “wild” bees. I suspect you’re spot on. Next season will tell.

 

[Boston Bees]

That's not fully correct, wild living colnys don't always die, they do however move on to new places quite often and when there is no human intervention there is obviously no chemical treatments yet they do survive

Of course. No-one is saying otherwise. Honey-bee colonies can swarm 5+ times per year if left to their own devices. At that rate of multiplication, some genetics survive even with high natural/varroa mortality. But this is very different to saying that an individual colony "survives".

The US research you are talking about is, I assume, Seeley, which has been discussed ad-nauseum on this site. But in summary, Seeley showed exactly the above scenario. Very high swarming tendency, and the resultant small colonies and brood breaks, allowed genetic lines to just about stay ahead of varroa. But this is completely different to saying that those bees are resistant to varroa.

 

[Robinredcar]

Of course. No-one is saying otherwise. Honey-bee colonies can swarm 5+ times per year if left to their own devices. At that rate of multiplication, some genetics survive even with high natural/varroa mortality. But this is very different to saying that an individual colony "survives".

The US research you are talking about is, I assume, Seeley, which has been discussed ad-nauseum on this site. But in summary, Seeley showed exactly the above scenario. Very high swarming tendency, and the resultant small colonies, allowed genetics to just about stay ahead of varroa. But this is completely different to saying that those bees are resistant to varroa.

I'd disagree, try leaving your bees with no varroa treatment I think the given mortality is around 95%? Swarming is a tool to reduce varroa but will not eradicate them as shown by Seeley the truly wild colonys his research is based on still has varroa and survives?
The nature of honey bee reproduction means that the individual colony survives when it swarms its genetics are passed on they don't magically start new colonys from thin air do they?
Did you watch the link I posted?